Historically, what kind of naval power did the nations/city states have? Athens? Rome the city/Rome the empire? Persia? The Hellenic (sp?) league that drove back the Persians? Egypt? Various fiction/nonfiction does not seem to have a good definitive size and I'm trying to place it. I would think that Colonial England would have a fleet in the hundreds for instance as they were noted as being the great naval power of the era. I'm trying to get it in the right ballpark for late bronze age campaign where it is mostly city states but the first few nations have started to spring up. Thanks for your time.
Fleet sizes?
- Thread starter Darklance
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SableWyvern
Hero
Info summarised from The Roman War Machine, by John Peddie:
It can be surmised that Caesor's first reconnaisance mission to Britain (AD 54) included approximately 250 ships, including approximately 100 troop transports, several scouting ships, assault landing craft, administration vessels and dedicated warships.
The next year he arrived in force with about 800 ships in total.
So, they obviously had a decent sized navy. It was basically a support arm of the army, and each ship's crew was treated as a century of the army.
Appart from ballistas and other light siege weapons, it is possible these vessels were armed with siphon operated flamethrowers (utilising greek fire); certainly such weapons were in use by the time of Constantine.
From Decisive Battles of the Western World, Vol I, by J F C Fuller (info is a bit sketchy because I need sleep and can't be bothered studying):
The Greeks raised approximately 324 triremes and 9 penteconters to meet an Egyptian invasion force, circa 480BC; the Egyptian navy was approx. 1,200 warships and 3,000 transports (or at least, that was the claim), but only about 200 warships were involved in the invasion.
It seems the numbers involved there are unusually high (probably due to a Greek alliance vs Egypt); a later battle (circa 420 BC) between Syracuse and Athens shows only about 80 ships a side.
Hope something here is intelligible and semi-useful.
It can be surmised that Caesor's first reconnaisance mission to Britain (AD 54) included approximately 250 ships, including approximately 100 troop transports, several scouting ships, assault landing craft, administration vessels and dedicated warships.
The next year he arrived in force with about 800 ships in total.
So, they obviously had a decent sized navy. It was basically a support arm of the army, and each ship's crew was treated as a century of the army.
Appart from ballistas and other light siege weapons, it is possible these vessels were armed with siphon operated flamethrowers (utilising greek fire); certainly such weapons were in use by the time of Constantine.
From Decisive Battles of the Western World, Vol I, by J F C Fuller (info is a bit sketchy because I need sleep and can't be bothered studying):
The Greeks raised approximately 324 triremes and 9 penteconters to meet an Egyptian invasion force, circa 480BC; the Egyptian navy was approx. 1,200 warships and 3,000 transports (or at least, that was the claim), but only about 200 warships were involved in the invasion.
It seems the numbers involved there are unusually high (probably due to a Greek alliance vs Egypt); a later battle (circa 420 BC) between Syracuse and Athens shows only about 80 ships a side.
Hope something here is intelligible and semi-useful.
MythandLore
First Post
The Persian Armada (aka. the Invincible Armada)
492 BC Darius gathered together a great military force and sent 600 ships to attack the Greeks.
They lost.
The Mongol Armada. (aka. the Invincible Armada)
1281 AD, two magnificent Chinese fleets set sail for the Empire of Japan.
Their purpose was to launch a massive invasion on the Japanese home islands and to conquer Japan in the name of the Great Mongol Emperor Kublai Kahn.
The Mongol Armada had a total of 4,400 ships and 141,000 troops.
They lost.
The Spanish Armada. (aka. the Invincible Armada)
1588 AD, the fleet launched by Philip II of Spain for the invasion of England, to overthrow the Protestant Elizabeth I and establish Philip on the English throne.
The Armada consisted of 130 ships, and carried about 30,000 men.
They lost.
492 BC Darius gathered together a great military force and sent 600 ships to attack the Greeks.
They lost.
The Mongol Armada. (aka. the Invincible Armada)
1281 AD, two magnificent Chinese fleets set sail for the Empire of Japan.
Their purpose was to launch a massive invasion on the Japanese home islands and to conquer Japan in the name of the Great Mongol Emperor Kublai Kahn.
The Mongol Armada had a total of 4,400 ships and 141,000 troops.
They lost.
The Spanish Armada. (aka. the Invincible Armada)
1588 AD, the fleet launched by Philip II of Spain for the invasion of England, to overthrow the Protestant Elizabeth I and establish Philip on the English throne.
The Armada consisted of 130 ships, and carried about 30,000 men.
They lost.
It depends...
It really depends on if you are talking about wartime or peacetime. From the beginning of naval history, city-states and countries mainted small naval forces during peacetime, engaged in major construction programs during armed conflict, then "mothballed" (inactivated) much of their fleet after the war ended.
The U.S. does the same thing now, there are literally hundreds of ships in ports around the country - mothballed - waiting for some future high-intensity conflict. But I digress
!
One thing to remember about ancient authorities is that they were very prone to exaggeration (ie, they greatly inflated the number of enemy ships and downplayed the number on their own side to make victory seem that much more amazing). Reliable estimates of the numbers involved at the battle of Salamis (480 BC) which turned back the Persians at sea during the 2nd Persian invasion of Greece place the number of Greek ships at 260 - 300 and the number of Persian ships at 600 - 700. These numbers included not only the main warships (triremes for the Greeks), but older model ships and lighter scout craft.
A good discussion on the Roman Navy (and the notorius inaccuracy of historical sources) can be found here:
The Roman Navy
Another thing to keep in mind is that 25-40% of a fleet will be unavailable at any given time due to routine maintainence, accidents and crew shortages.
Have fun!
Old One
It really depends on if you are talking about wartime or peacetime. From the beginning of naval history, city-states and countries mainted small naval forces during peacetime, engaged in major construction programs during armed conflict, then "mothballed" (inactivated) much of their fleet after the war ended.
The U.S. does the same thing now, there are literally hundreds of ships in ports around the country - mothballed - waiting for some future high-intensity conflict. But I digress
!One thing to remember about ancient authorities is that they were very prone to exaggeration (ie, they greatly inflated the number of enemy ships and downplayed the number on their own side to make victory seem that much more amazing). Reliable estimates of the numbers involved at the battle of Salamis (480 BC) which turned back the Persians at sea during the 2nd Persian invasion of Greece place the number of Greek ships at 260 - 300 and the number of Persian ships at 600 - 700. These numbers included not only the main warships (triremes for the Greeks), but older model ships and lighter scout craft.
A good discussion on the Roman Navy (and the notorius inaccuracy of historical sources) can be found here:
The Roman Navy
Another thing to keep in mind is that 25-40% of a fleet will be unavailable at any given time due to routine maintainence, accidents and crew shortages.
Have fun!
Old One
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