Flesh to Stone spell - why the poor rating

[jgsugden]

In my game I introduced a new spell which has some advantages that I believe makes it more attractive. Primarily, it is not a concentration spell and the creature can't shrug it off with one successful save - they must continue to make saves every round until the end of the duration unless someone assists them with dispel magic or they get a lucky saving throw. The one PC that used it typically used it for hit and run tactics. For purposes of this spell and other spells I have made for my game, Legendary Resistance is treated as rolling a 20 on a saving throw.

Medusa's Gaze
6th-level transmutation
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (a snake head)
Duration: 1 minute (no concentration)

Your eyes flash with a blue glow and one creature of your choice that can see you must make a Constitution Saving throw. If the target's body is made of flesh, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it is restrained as its flesh begins to harden and a "stone counter" is tracked for the creature. On a successful save, the creature suffers no negative effects this round and no stone counter is gained. A natural 20 on this saving throws ends this spell.

On each round during the duration of the spell, the creature must make another Concentration saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it is restrained as its flesh hardens and an (additional?) "stone counter" is tracked for the creature. On a successful save, if the creature was restrained by this spell, it is no longer restrained. A natural 20 on one of these saving throws ends this spell.

If a creature gains five "stone counters" before the end of the duration of this spell, the creature is subject to the petrified condition until the end of the duration and no longer makes any saving throws for this spell. If the creature suffers physical deformities while petrified, it suffers similar damage when returned to flesh. If petrified at the end of the duration, the creature turns to stone until the effect is removed.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

What if the spell was changed as follows?

Flesh to Stone
6th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of lime, water, and earth)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You attempt to turn one creature that you can see within range into stone. If the target’s body is made of flesh, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save it suffers from being petrified, however the creature remains conscious and aware of its surroundings. On a successful save, the creature becomes restrained.

A creature that is either petrified or restrained by this spell must make another Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns. If it successfully saves against this spell three times, the spell ends. If it fails its saves three times, it is turned to stone and subjected to the petrified condition for the duration, losing consciousness and awareness of its surroundings. The successes and failures don’t need to be consecutive; keep track of both until the target collects three of a kind.

If the creature is physically broken while petrified, it suffers from similar deformities if it reverts to its original state.

If you maintain your concentration on this spell for the entire possible duration, the creature is turned to stone until the effect is removed.

 

[Gadget]

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION] I like your version of the spell, this definitely more potent.

Some critiques: This pretty much guarantees ~3 round restraint, no matter the targets resistances or Saves. It could be a little too much to automatically inflict on an Ancient Wyrm/Orcus. This is also a good way to force a foe to burn through their Legendary Resistances, though they may not need to use them to through off the effects, as it is a Con Save. Might it not be better to follow Otto's Irresistible Dance and have the spell Immediately inflict the restrained condition, no save, then force the target to spend an action on their turn to make the initial save? If the target makes the save, then the spell is over, but at least they suffered the restrained condition for a partial round and wasted an action to overcome it. If they fail the save, then perhaps they need to make two saves before they fail two suffer petrification condition for the duration.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION] I like your version of the spell, this definitely more potent.

Some critiques: This pretty much guarantees ~3 round restraint, no matter the targets resistances or Saves. It could be a little too much to automatically inflict on an Ancient Wyrm/Orcus. This is also a good way to force a foe to burn through their Legendary Resistances, though they may not need to use them to through off the effects, as it is a Con Save. Might it not be better to follow Otto's Irresistible Dance and have the spell Immediately inflict the restrained condition, no save, then force the target to spend an action on their turn to make the initial save? If the target makes the save, then the spell is over, but at least they suffered the restrained condition for a partial round and wasted an action to overcome it. If they fail the save, then perhaps they need to make two saves before they fail two suffer petrification condition for the duration.

The 3 rounds (min) of restraint is intentional. I didn't want it to resemble Otto's Irresistible Dance too much because if that's what you want, then why not cast that spell? So I removed the action cost intentionally. Thematically, if you envision a spell turning you to stone, if it doesn't work instantly then it is visibly and slowly turning you to stone. In any movie I've ever seen, the slow process version increasingly impacts mobility. So from a narrative perspective, the spell either works, it midway works until you become stone, or you resist it off.

This spell will certainly make many fights easier, but not any more so than Hold Monster as mentioned above. Additionally, if we are talking big bads like dragons and such, they should always have minions, lair actions, or ways to attack that don't require attack rolls.

 

[Stalker0]

To the OPs question...the key aspect of the spell is it’s automatic nature.

Almost any monster, no matter how powerful or legendary...for 3 rounds:

1) cannot move
2) has disadvantage to all attacks
3) all attacks to hit it have advantage.

So as a solo debuffer that seems nice to me. The question though is it 6th level spell worthy?

 

[CapnZapp]

From a PCs point of view this quirk is useless, partly because three rounds is an eternity in combat, partly because - well, who wants a stone statue?

The only conclusion is: this spell is meant only for "evil" NPCs to scare players with.

From a player's POV it's severely overleveled for what it actually does, assuming petrification is zero added value.

What the spell needed to do to deserve its level, is of course instant petrification (=taking a monster out of the fight completely).

In order for the spell not to be a save-or-die spell, the target could still be given a chance to recover and break out of the petrification three rounds later.

But the main analysis is easy: restrained is far too weak a condition for this level.

You're welcome.

 

[jaelis]

Actually, it is:
- Make the initial save: no effect
- Fail the initial save: restrained for at least three rounds

I think that a multiround, no save restraint effect would be worth level 6.

 

[MarkB]

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION] I like your version of the spell, this definitely more potent.

Some critiques: This pretty much guarantees ~3 round restraint, no matter the targets resistances or Saves. It could be a little too much to automatically inflict on an Ancient Wyrm/Orcus. This is also a good way to force a foe to burn through their Legendary Resistances, though they may not need to use them to through off the effects, as it is a Con Save. Might it not be better to follow Otto's Irresistible Dance and have the spell Immediately inflict the restrained condition, no save, then force the target to spend an action on their turn to make the initial save? If the target makes the save, then the spell is over, but at least they suffered the restrained condition for a partial round and wasted an action to overcome it. If they fail the save, then perhaps they need to make two saves before they fail two suffer petrification condition for the duration.

How about this:

The target is subjected to the spell with no saving throw and becomes Restrained.

They then need to make Constitution saves at the end of each of their turns. Successful saves progress their condition from Restrained to Slowed to free of the spell. Failed saves progress their condition from Restrained to Paralysed to Petrified. The spell ends when they become either freed or petrified.

 

[jaelis]

How about this:

The target is subjected to the spell with no saving throw and becomes Restrained.

They then need to make Constitution saves at the end of each of their turns. Successful saves progress their condition from Restrained to Slowed to free of the spell. Failed saves progress their condition from Restrained to Paralysed to Petrified. The spell ends when they become either freed or petrified.

I like that idea. Maybe instead of slowed though I would just make their speed zero, that is simpler.

 

[Maxperson]

Reading through the class guides, most give this spell a poor rating which I don't understand.

I know it is a Con save which is not a good save to go against, but if the the creature fails the first save, it is restrained until it succeeds on 3 saves. Its not like other spells in which once it saves the spell is done.

While it is restrained, it has a speed of 0. That dragon or whatever flying creature can't fly and all attacks against it are at advantage. And its attacks are at disadvantage.

So what am I missing for its poor grade?

For one thing, it's not a Flesh to Stone spell. It's just a paralysis spell with a rock theme. How often are you going to fail 3 saves and have the caster keep his concentration for 10 rounds?