Fleshshiver (PGtF) + Chain spell (T&B) = urrrgh ?

[Dthamilaye]

Hello.

What do you think of this combo:

Fleshshiver (from Players guide to faerun), 5th level spell.
+
Chain spell metamagic feat (from Tome & Blood).


Does anyone think it is bit overpowered to be able to stun an amount of targets up to Caster Level with one 8th lvl spell for 1 round, without save?

Am I right to assume that Fleshshiver (stun+other things) do not work on undead or constructs, even if the stun part does not have a save?

Now, is the Fleshshiver too powerful a spell on its own? Stun for 1 round, no save. Then one fort save to prevent limitless (up to Caster Level) d6 bludgeoning(!) damage (resistances don't work vs this) and 1d4+ rounds of nausea?

One 20th level caster with Fleshshiver and Chain spell could keep a very large amount of (non-undead/non-construct) targets stunned as long as he just has the spells. I just found it bit funny when one sorcerer kept a pack of Brachyurus (ELHB) stunned for a long time while everyone else had easy time to chop them to bits.

Power Word: Stun is the closest spell I find to compare to Fleshshiver, and it is 8th level, Enchantment, Mind-affecting, and works only on targets with 150hp or less. Yeah, it gives more rounds of stun, but it cannot be chained to CL amount of targets before few epic feats.

Fleshshiver is 5th level, does only 1 round of stun but with less restrictions and additionally it can do (bludgeoning) damage and nauseate. And it works well with metamagics, as it is lower level.

Any opinions?

Thank you.
Dthamilaye.

 

[Thanee]

Doesn't Chain Spell allow a reflex save for secondary targets?

And Chain Spell is highly restrictive about what kind of spells you can actually use it with, but since I'm not familiar with the spell you posted, I can't really say in this example.

Bye
Thanee

 

[The Souljourner]

Undead and constructs are immune to stunning. Says so under their type in the MM.

Chain spell is pretty cheesy, which is why it probably won't get reprinted in 3.5. Faerun is generally pretty overpowered.

In general, I've always thought the Power Word spells were terribly underpowered in 3.x. With hitpoints so much higher, they'll almost never be useful on people your own level, and people they are useful on you could just squish anyway.

I don't have the book, so I don't know what else it does.. but a 5th level spell that stuns for 1 round no save and then fort save to stop caster level d6 damage and nausea sounds about right. It only hits one creature, and it's two levels higher than fireball.... it sounds fine on its own.

Saying a spell is cheesy with Chain Spell is like saying a Geo Metro is faster with a V8.

-The Souljourner

 

[Plane Sailing]

As a 5th level spell it should have a 15d6 cap like cone of cold.

Typically spells that are damage + special effect normally lose the special effect if a save is made and give reduced damage (e.g. unholy blight).

Typically a "mass" version of a spell is about 3 levels higher than the standard version (although they blurred that a bit more in 3.5). Consider horrid wilting affects 1 target per level for 1d6 per caster level and no resistances. This suggests by back-reasoning that you could have a 5th level spell which did 1d6 per caster level with no resistances.

So it sounds to me that a balanced 5th level spell (called, say, "Wilting") would be 1d6 per caster level to a single target, fort for half. 1d8 per caster level against water or plant creatures.

It sounds to me as if fleshshiver is just a badly balanced spell

 

[hong]

I know that if I were twinking out a bloodmage for my campaign, with access to all Necromancy spells, fleshshiver would be up there on the list of must-haves along with harm and blasphemy. Who cares about the damage? The no-save stun is what breaks the spell!

No. Nope. Never. Nuh-uh.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Ouch, for a 5th level spell this rather sucks.

Fortitude save partial: Automatically stunned one round (shucks Color Spray can almost do that, just a wee lil will save is all), and on the following round the target makes a Fort SV OR takes 1d6/lvl and be naseated for a number of rounds. The Fort SV negates this last part. Not to mention that this spell won't be all that useful against really powerful monsters/fighter-types with high Fort SVs, likely all you get there is a 5th lvl spell that stuns for 1 round, ooooo, wow. Points for creativity on this one.

Though you're bound to turn an enemy wizard into butter! Mmmm, mmm. Yummy.

Combining it with chain spell turns the spell into a relative radius burst spell. That's alright, but for an 8th lvl spell (with the DC for a 5th lvl spell) and using it against much tougher opponents, I'd say it only be real useful against low-level flunkies or a lucky shot on a circle of mages. Not bad, balanced I suppose though it wouldn't be on the top of my list of spells to have. Especially to fill an 8th lvl slot...

edit - not to mention that the target must possess a skeleton for this spell to even work at all.

 

[The Souljourner]

Who cares about the damage? The no-save stun is what breaks the spell!

Stunned for 1 round breaks the spell? Dude, you must think Monks are Ba-roken. Stunned for 1 round is umm... kinda nice. Sorta. For a 5th level spell, it's crap, especially since it only hits one guy. Yeah, so the fighter drops his sword.... 'course, he'll make the fort save, so you just wasted a 5th level spell to take a fighter out of the battle for 1 round, and make him waste a move action picking up his sword. Whatever.

Fort save for none? Crap. Horrid Wilting is Fort for half, and hits multiple targets without having to worry about hitting your friends and has a DC 3 higher. Yes, I know chain spell does almost the same thing, but as I mentioned before, chain spell is cheesy, and can't really be used to measure the differences between spells.

Yes, if there is no limit the the dice of the spell, something is wrong. That sounds ripe for errata. 15d6 definitely ought to be the max on almost all 5th level spells, including this one.

The spell seems fine to me. Slightly on the powerful side of things, but pretty much on par for Forgotten Realms.

-The Souljourner

 

[hong]

Stunned for 1 round breaks the spell? Dude, you must think Monks are Ba-roken. Stunned for 1 round is umm... kinda nice.

Which part of "no save" did you fail to understand?

Sorta. For a 5th level spell, it's crap, especially since it only hits one guy. Yeah, so the fighter drops his sword.... 'course, he'll make the fort save, so you just wasted a 5th level spell to take a fighter out of the battle for 1 round, and make him waste a move action picking up his sword. Whatever.

Do you have any sort of clue how useful taking someone out for one round is, when fights at high levels commonly last 4 rounds or less? Particularly if that someone is the main damage-dealer in the group?

 

[the Jester]

A no save stun effect is lethal if the party has a good rogue. Much less two of 'em.

 

[hong]

A no save stun effect is lethal if the party has a good rogue. Much less two of 'em.

Heck, a no save stun effect is lethal if you have _any_ sort of muscle to back up the caster.