"Flipping" saves to attacks

[Olgar Shiverstone]

This popped up in another thread and is apparently a feature of SWSE and was mentioned in Rich Baker's blog. Can someone elaborate on the details of how it works and elaborate on pros and cons?

I gather it replaces saving throws with a spell "attack" roll against some(?) defense mechanism. I don't think I like that on first blush as I want to be in control of my character's defenses ... but I don't think I understand the complete system.

 

[DogBackward]

From what I understand, the SWSE version gives you three defenses, the Fortitude Defense, Reflex Defense, and Will Defense. When you "attack" with a special ability, you roll your attack against the appropriate defense of your target(s). I'm not sure of the exact details, as I don't have the SWSE book yet.

One big bonus I can see with it is cutting down on time spent rolling. Now, when you fireball that group of 20 goblins, you don't have to wait for your DM to roll 20 saves. You roll one attack, and apply it against 20 defenses instead.

As for being in control of your saves, you're not in control of them now, really. The die roll is still random, and you control your bonus to saves just as easily as you would control your total defense scores. Think of it as AC for your saves. It seems like a really good idea, to me.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Essentially, take your current saving throw bonus and add 10. That's now your Reflex Defense or Fortitude Defense.

In Saga the numbers going into it are somewhat different (a flat 1/1 level bonus plus a small one-time class bonus) but essentially, that is the mechanic at the core.

I'm trying it out tonight in a one-shot to see how we like it.

I simplified the D&D save progression by going with a 1/2 level based progression on all save/Defense scores with a +2 bonus from class. +2 + (1/2 lvl) equates out to the Good progression in D&D as it is. I did that to simplify things and keep the math about the same.

Save-inducing effects would get a + attack equal to their DC-10 or so.

 

[drothgery]

1. Instead of Fort, Will, and Ref saves, you've got Fort, Will, and Ref Defenses. In SWSE, they're 10+character level+ability modifier+class modifier (most base classes give a +2 to one defense and a +1 to another)
2. When you use the kinds of attacks that would generally require a saving throw in D&D, you make an attack roll against one of the targets defenses, or, in some cases, a skill check. So if you want to use the famous Jedi Mind Trick (assuming you have that Force Power available) you make a Use the Force check against the target's Will Defense. However, because Jabba is pretty high level and Hutts have a species bonus to Will Defense against Force powers, it's pretty hard for Luke to Mind Trick Jabba.

The biggest advatages to 'flipping' saves are...
1. It makes resolving area and other multi-target attacks (in SWSE, you're basically thinking grenades, autofire, and some Force powers) somewhat faster, because you only have to roll one attack roll and then compare it to everyone's defenses.
2. It makes the game a bit more consistent; the attacker always rolls.
3. In SWSE, they've eliminated a standalone 'defense' (aka AC in D&D land) in favor of ref defense; this elminates a bit of weirdness in D&D (where some spells had touch attacks and other rather similar spells had ref saves).

The biggest disadvantages are really psychological; it's tough to not be able to do anything but hope the bad guy rolls low when he's tossing Force Lightning at you. And it means that when you fireball a horde of identical mooks, they'll either all succeed or all fail.

 

[EricNoah]

This is the least "scary" change I've heard. Makes sense that when you attack, whether with a sword or a spell, you are rolling a die.

Also puts one of the comments I saw somewhere -- "+6 wand" into perspective. Maybe wands aren't "50 castings of a spell" any more -- maybe they help you with your spell attack roll, like a magic weapon helps with your weapon attack roll. Maybe staves are the main spell-storing sticks of 4E.

 

[EricNoah]

And it means that when you fireball a horde of identical mooks, they'll either all succeed or all fail.

Ah, that's something I hadn't considered. Not as "real" as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, rolling a dozen reflex saves ... not quick/easy.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yes, this changes the statistical distribution dramatically...

 

[starwed]

Eh, an easy houserule could be to give two fractions of each large group a +/- 5 vs. each roll.

I'm thinking of the DM just eyeballing the numbers in each group, not a complete set of complicated rules for determining exactly which monsters get the bonus/penalty.

 

[Plane Sailing]

And it means that when you fireball a horde of identical mooks, they'll either all succeed or all fail.

This is the downside of it.

An upside though is that if anyone is unaffected, it will be the most reflexy people. i.e. no longer do you have lightning McReflex roll a series of 2's and fail, while clunky McLazy rolls 20's all the time and succeed. If it gets McReflex, it will get McLazy; you'll never see a situation where Clunky McLazy laughs at the charred Lightning McReflex again.

 

[Baby Samurai]

It originally appeared as a variant in UA.