Flurry + TWF

[Bloodweaver1]

Apologize if this has been covered.

Can someone please explain to me how TWF works with flurry of blows, if at all? I have read the FAQ, but I cannot seem to make sense of it. For an example, 11th level monk with ITWF. Thanks!

-Blood

 

[pawsplay]

The FAQ states they can be used together.

You can use either a monk weapon or an unarmed strike as your primary attack. As your secondary attack, you can use any weapon that was not used in the primary attack (because that is the one used to flurry). So, if you use nunchaku, you could use your unarmed strike as a secondary, and vice versa. If you have two nunchaku, you could use one to flurry, and the other for a secondary attack.

There was a debate on these boards recently as to whether you could use "two fists" as two weapons. I weighed in with your unarmed strike counting as one weapon, as there "is no such thing as an off hand attack" with a monk's unarmed strike.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There was a debate on these boards recently as to whether you could use "two fists" as two weapons.

There's also debate as to whether your off-hand attack can be with, say, a shortsword... or if it's under the 'when using Flurry of Blows' restriction of unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

-Hyp.

 

[Ranger REG]

I usually enforce that unarmed strike or one of the special monk weapons must be designated as the primary weapon in order to use FoB with two-weapon fighting. In the case of unarmed strike and shortsword above, unarmed strike must be primary to use FoB. The shortsword is designated the off-hand weapon.

And yeah, I do question if the monk's unarmed strikes alone can be used to combine FoB and two-weapon fighting.

 

[Bloodweaver1]

I take it that statement, "is no such thing as an off hand attack" does not sole imply when one is carrying a non-combat item in both hands. As monk can use its feet or head as weapon.

So for instance a monk could (or could not) use thier fists FoB while following up with their feet/head for TWF?

Also, what would the attack progression look like?

-Blood

 

[pawsplay]

I know that regardless of the number of limbs, a creature with a slam attack only has as many as it has. And an unarmed strike is not in all ways a weapon; it is a "strike" and in my opinion, you only have one of them, monk or not. To me, no off hand means a monk's unarmed strike is one attack with no secondary attack.

 

[Korak]

To my thinking, the whole purpose of the "no off-hand" wording is to reinforce two points.

1. Monks are not necessarily striking with their fists.

2. All the unarmed strikes use the monk's full strength bonus for damage.

With that said, I believe the wording of flurry of blows requires that all the attacks made in the full attack come from unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, and that if a special monk weapon is used to make an off-hand attack in conjunction with two weapon fighting rules, that the same weapon must be used for all iterative off-hand attacks (presuming at least ITWF) and that any of those offhand attacks only benefit from half strength bonus.

 

[Klaus]

To use Flurry of Blows + TWF:

- Designate "unarmed strike" as your primary weapon. Carry a (preferably light) weapon in one of your hands.
- Make a full attack, wielding both weapons. You suffer a -2 penalty on both attacks if the weapon is light.
- Your primary weapon, "unarmed strike", performs a Flurry of Blows, so you attack one more time with it, and it suffers an additional -2 penalty from the Flurry.

So a Monk 2/Ranger 2 with the two-weapon Combat Style and a shortsword has the following attacks available:

- Unarmed Strike +3 or
- Shortsword +3 or
- Unarmed Strike +1 and Shortsword +1 or
- Unarmed Strike -1/-1 and Shortsword +1

 

[ValhallaGH]

By 11th level a Monk gets two extra attacks from a Flurry, at no penalty. Assuming Improved TWF and a light offhand weapon then a monk's base attacks would look like the following
Flurry-compliant main hand:
+6/+6/+6/+1
Light off-hand
+6/+1

Four attacks at +6 (three monk and one off-hand) and two attacks at +1 (one monk and one off-hand).

The primary weapon must be used for the flurry, resulting in a restriction to either special monk weapons (which can be expanded by feats) or unarmed strikes.
If unarmed strikes are used as the off-hand then those strikes count as off-hand weapons and deal 1/2 Str damage, as normal for off-hand weapons.

Whether or not all attacks can be unarmed strikes is up to DM interpretation, as the rules are hazy. I'm firmly in the 'yes they can all be unarmed' camp but there are plenty of people that disagree.

 

[Hypersmurf]

To my thinking, the whole purpose of the "no off-hand" wording is to reinforce two points.

1. Monks are not necessarily striking with their fists.

2. All the unarmed strikes use the monk's full strength bonus for damage.

With that said, I believe the wording of flurry of blows requires that all the attacks made in the full attack come from unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, and that if a special monk weapon is used to make an off-hand attack in conjunction with two weapon fighting rules, that the same weapon must be used for all iterative off-hand attacks (presuming at least ITWF) and that any of those offhand attacks only benefit from half strength bonus.

It always struck me as an odd position to take.

"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" means "A monk's unarmed strike isn't treated as an off-hand attack... unless he makes an off-hand attack with it"?

-Hyp.