Fly is out?

[gninjagnome]

It seems to me that 4e is shaping up to be a "No you can't" type of game. Please tell me I'm wrong.

It only seems limiting since you are comparing it to earlier editions. If flight had been a much later power in 3rd Edition (or earlier), you wouldn't see this change as limiting.

Also, there could be a much more limited version of flight as an earlier power.

And what about creatures? Am I supposed to never, ever even consider allowing Avariel or other winged characters in the game?

That's quite the jump there. I think you just need to keep the players limitations in mind when using those types of characters. I don't see it as being any different then the way things are now, only you have more levels where you have to consider that your players can't fly consistently.

 

[eleran]

It seems to me that 4e is shaping up to be a "No you can't" type of game. Please tell me I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

 

[eleran]

It only seems limiting since you are comparing it to earlier editions. If flight had been a much later power in 3rd Edition (or earlier), you wouldn't see this change as limiting.

Also, there could be a much more limited version of flight as an earlier power.

excellent point. Maybe Fly isn't under-powered now, maybe it was overpowered before.

 

[Aeolius]

excellent point. Maybe Fly isn't under-powered now, maybe it was overpowered before.

That still doesn't account for swimming. It's fairly important to know what's above and beneath you, when you're exploring the depths.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

What I don't understand about the Fly spell changes and the Eladrin Teleport ability is that they seem to be moving the game in opposite directions.

I totally support making Fly a higher level power. I have run 3E with fly house-ruled to a caster-only 4th level spell for years, and my PCs still take it as soon as they can. It's boring for me as a GM when I try to use terrain to make an interesting tactical challenge, but fly can totally negate it.

Scratch that, there's no _reason_ for a 3E GM to try to use terrain to make an interesting challenge, because he's just selectively screwing a subset of the PCs (the ones who can't fly).


On the other hand, I absolutely hate the low level teleport effects. Teleportation has always been portrayed as big, flashy, hard magic, in D&D, and in every other RPG I have played. I will not run a game where the PCs teleport around the map at level 1, 3, or 5, and if I can't house rule 4E to make this work in a clean fashion, well, I won't play 4E.

Besides being counter to the existing genre conventions, low-level Teleport is bad because it works against the goal of having terrain be important on the battlefield.

Ken

 

[Walking Dad]

...

Besides being counter to the existing genre conventions, low-level Teleport is bad because it works against the goal of having terrain be important on the battlefield.

Ken

The only low-level teleports so far are encounter powers (let you "ignore terrain once") or special condition (kill cursed enemy). Nothing reliable to ignore terrain. I wonder what on what level at will-teleport will be...

 

[jdrakeh]

Magical flight is not 100% necessary, but it's such a fantasy standard. . .

Not really. It's a D&D standard. Outside of D&D, magical flight is fairly obscure in fantasy. The most notable exception I can think of is the flying carpet of 1,001 Nights fame and, even then, we're talking about a solitary magical item. Scaling back on flight makes a lot of sense if they're trying to make this edition of the game more easily adaptable to non-D&D fantasy than past editions. I might be nuts but, after reading a lot about the design choices, this definitely seems to be a goal of D&D 4e.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Not really. It's a D&D standard. Outside of D&D, magical flight is fairly obscure in fantasy. The most notable exception I can think of is the flying carpet of 1,001 Nights fame and, even then, we're talking about a solitary magical item.

Well there is also the slightly obscure Harry Potter series where everyone and their brothers have a broomstick that they can fly on from level 1.

 

[jdrakeh]

Well there is also the slightly obscure Harry Potter series where everyone and their brothers have a broomstick that they can fly on from level 1.

That's true but as Fly in D&D predates Harry Potter by about 30 years, I'm certain that this argument cannot be made in favor of D&D adapting the power to fly as an omnipresent convention of Fantasy. Because, you know, at the time D&D adopted the ability it was not an ominipresent convention of Fantasy.

[Edit: Even considering Harry Potter, you have two notable sources in all of Fantasy which, despite the popularity of Potter, in no way makes the convention a staple of Fantasy as a genre.]

 

[Will]

Yes, but note that the broomsticks are items, and that the vast majority of their use is limited to Quidditch, with an occasional plot exception.

The vast majority of 'play,' none of the main characters fly.

Granted, in the last movie, adults apparantly fly quite often, but again, it's one scene.