Flying Kick and druids

[Brekki]

Would I benefit from this feat, once wildshape in a tiger?

Flying Kick
(General)

You literally leap into battle, dealing devastating damage.
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack, Improved unarmed strike, Jump (4 ranks)
Benefits: When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal double damage with your unarmed attack.

Wilshaped as a tiger, I would be considered having the Imp. Unarmed strike, right?

In 3.0 ... definately YES. Check out the "Unarmed Attacks" section at PH.140 to see that natural attacks are part of a bigger whole, called unarmed attacks.

In 3.5 ... I can't find anything that's clear about the natural/unarmed thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no support, at all, for this "ruling". So much so that this isn't even a ruling - it's a house rule nerf of the charge bonuses.

And I'm fine with that. I stated "In my campaign, I would rule..." I'm not trying to claim it's official.

I've seen charge-fighters in action - I've played charge-fighters. It's nasty - but taking Cleave away from them nerfs them into uselessness.

I'm not taking Cleave away. I'm taking quintuple damage on a Cleave away. If they drop an opponent with their Charge, they can Cleave... but when they Cleave, they're not Charging any more, so they don't get their +2, they don't get their Spirited Charge, they don't get their Rhino Hide, and they don't get their Power Lunge.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Hypersmurf, do you take weapon specialization bonuses away half way through the charge attack + cleave combo?

The two aren't different. It's a situational bonus which applies for the entire attack (a glaive on a charge, for example).

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, do you take weapon specialization bonuses away half way through the charge attack + cleave combo?

No. When they Cleave, they are still using the weapon in which they are specialized. When they Cleave, they are no longer charging.

I don't consider the two at all analogous.

-Hyp.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm not taking Cleave away. I'm taking quintuple damage on a Cleave away. If they drop an opponent with their Charge, they can Cleave... but when they Cleave, they're not Charging any more, so they don't get their +2, they don't get their Spirited Charge, they don't get their Rhino Hide, and they don't get their Power Lunge.

I would go so far as to say that any reasonable DM would rule as much... but that's just me. I don't see how is would work in the game (the force goes into the first attack, then is used to deal extra damage), and ruling otherwise would cause problems out of the game (game balance, an important design principle IMO).

 

[nimisgod]

That's exactly the point, obviously.

Nimisgod, you allowed it in your campaign. Is it overpowered? It does smell cheesy...

OH it is cheezy. I use it on my players for the most part. Case in point, a Barglura Demon has can full attack on a charge (like pounce except available every time he charges). It only took 2 or 3 of these advanced demons (CR11s) to demolish a 17th level Tank (I let players maximize their HPs for my games) in 1 round.

That was a GM adversarial-type 3.0 game though and the players new that the gloves were off. But that's beside the point: Yes, it is cheezy.

BY the rules, a wildshaping druid (or a Singh rager or that new PrC from BOED) with this feat + pounce would kill practically anything. While I find the Singh Rager incredibly cheezy (and deserving of a nerf), a Tiger's (or Lion's) pounce ability is core and so isn't as mutable as non-core material, IMG.

When converting 3.5, I would recommend that Flying kick gives only an additional 2d6 or 1d6 damage, using the 3.5 Rhinohide armor as precedent. Same applies to the Sandals of Tiger's Leap. This would not entirely eliminate the problem but at least lessen it.

Also, you can define Flying Kick as applying to only the main attack in a charge with multiple attacks, but that would be a houserule.

edit: I checked and it seems that pounce no longer works just on the first round but on every charge.

 

[FrankTrollman]

No. When they Cleave, they are still using the weapon in which they are specialized. When they Cleave, they are no longer charging.

I don't consider the two at all analogous.

-Hyp.

If you don't also give the player back their 2 AC points because they aren't charging anymore when they cleave - this is the sinlge most inane and arbitrary thing I have heard come out of a DM since "You can only sneak atack once per turn".

If a DM tried to pull that kind of crap on me, I think I would pick up my dice and walk away. Some things are just disagreements - that's just stupid.

Have you ever played Dynasty Warriors? Or watched the Scorpion King? Or The Fellowship of the Ring? That's what cleaving on a charge looks like, and there is absolutely no way in which you aren't charging when you get the bonus attack roll. Game mechanically it's the same attack - thematically it is the same action.

Now, this sort of thing can be abused - for high level smackings/abuse I once wrote up a 20th level Druid who used nested form changings to do thousands of points of damage average every round (thanks to the fact that Shapechange doesn't take away abilities from your wildshaping). But the basic mechanic of charge + bonuses + cleave isn't broken - armored knight characters need it to live.

-Frank

 

[Mort]

Would I benefit from this feat, once wildshape in a tiger?

Flying Kick
(General)

You literally leap into battle, dealing devastating damage.
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack, Improved unarmed strike, Jump (4 ranks)
Benefits: When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal double damage with your unarmed attack.

Wilshaped as a tiger, I would be considered having the Imp. Unarmed strike, right?

This is a feat?

If so, you can't take it without fulfilling the prerequisites.
Wildshapred Tiger or not you do not have the feat unarmed strike - so don't qualify for this one.

Of course, I'm at work and not looking at my books, but I don't believe having a feat part time qualifies as meeting a prerq.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Having natural weapons does not even count as having the improved unarmed strike feat - you's still need to get the feat prereqs the normal way.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you don't also give the player back their 2 AC points because they aren't charging anymore when they cleave - this is the sinlge most inane and arbitrary thing I have heard come out of a DM since "You can only sneak atack once per turn".

Not at all. The AC penalty specifically applies until your next turn, while the attack bonus only applies to the attack from the Charge. If you make an AoO after your charge, the bonus does not apply, but you still retain the AC penalty. A Choker who charges and uses his Quickness action to make a second attack does not receive the bonus, but they retain the AC penalty.

Someone who uses True Strike or Smite Evil to attack and then Cleave does not retain the attack bonus from the effect on their Cleave attack - it only applies for a single attack.

A Cleave from a charge occurs after the single attack that a charge allows, and is thus no longer a charge.

-Hyp.