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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
This is an interesting power. Specifically the damage it deals:

"Hit: The target takes damage as if it were hit by its own melee basic attack. If you have combat advantage against the target, you can add your Sneak Attack damage."

I'm assuming, for the sake of balance, that this isn't supposed to mean you get sneak attack damage twice (which from a strict reading, it does).

However what exactly does the rest of it mean?

Do I apply ongoing damage for instance? Such damage would certainly occur if it were hit by it's own melee attack, but would it count as damage, or is it a condition that's been applied?

I assume that something like the tarrasque's ability to ignore damage reduction would apply. After all - it's directly affecting how much damage it would take if it hit itself.

I would think that applying anything that's not directly affecting damage would not be within the scope of the power: is this correct? Would an atropal (say) apply a -2 to it's attacks and cancel it's own necrotic immunity (save ends)?

What about creatures that mark (the ones that do not do so optionally)?

etc.

And after that - apply all the same stuff to powers that really cause a foe to attack itself. Is a foe that marks itself stuck with a -2 to all it's attacks that aren't suicidal?
 

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DracoSuave

First Post
This is an interesting power. Specifically the damage it deals:

"Hit: The target takes damage as if it were hit by its own melee basic attack. If you have combat advantage against the target, you can add your Sneak Attack damage."

I'm assuming, for the sake of balance, that this isn't supposed to mean you get sneak attack damage twice (which from a strict reading, it does).
You'd be correct. The extra text is just permitting you to use Sneak Attack damage on the monster, otherwise because it takes damage as if it hit itself, you're NOT damaging it, and therefore cannot use Sneak Attack damage normally. The extra text acts as exception, however, and permits you to go ahead and do the Sneak Attack damage.

However what exactly does the rest of it mean?

Do I apply ongoing damage for instance? Such damage would certainly occur if it were hit by it's own melee attack, but would it count as damage, or is it a condition that's been applied?
You apply all the effects of damage, including ongoing damage, conditions, etc.

I assume that something like the tarrasque's ability to ignore damage reduction would apply. After all - it's directly affecting how much damage it would take if it hit itself.
Correct.

I would think that applying anything that's not directly affecting damage would not be within the scope of the power: is this correct? Would an atropal (say) apply a -2 to it's attacks and cancel it's own necrotic immunity (save ends)?
The creature is treated as tho it was hit by its own attack. The extra effects are part of that.

What about creatures that mark (the ones that do not do so optionally)?
Then the monster is -2 to hit all enemies that are not itself until someone else marks it.

That's actually rather handy.

The -real- question is do monsters' Combat Advantage powers kick in if you have combat advantage against it? The damage is treated as if the monster hit, which means that you ask if the monster has Combat Advantage against itself?

Most times, monsters can perceive themselves, so Combat Advantage from being unaware would not apply. Combat Advantage from flanking could not apply either. Generally I'd say that if a monster does extra damage from Combat Advantage he doesn't do it to himself because even if he grants -you- combat advantage, he doesn't grant -himself- combat advantage.

That said, you're getting your Sneak Attack jollies anyways so be happy with that.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
You apply all the effects of damage, including ongoing damage, conditions, etc.

The creature is treated as tho it was hit by its own attack. The extra effects are part of that.
Conditions are not effects of damage; they are effects of the attack.

The creature is not treated as though it was hit by its own attack; it takes damage as though it was hit by its own attack.

If the creatures has a basic attack that deals 1d6 damage and slows (save ends), then the damage that attack deals is 1d6. If you take damage as though hit by that basic attack, you would suffer 1d6 damage. The slow is an effect of the basic attack, but it is not damage as though hit by that basic attack.

-Hyp.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Conditions are not effects of damage; they are effects of the attack.

The creature is not treated as though it was hit by its own attack; it takes damage as though it was hit by its own attack.

If the creatures has a basic attack that deals 1d6 damage and slows (save ends), then the damage that attack deals is 1d6. If you take damage as though hit by that basic attack, you would suffer 1d6 damage. The slow is an effect of the basic attack, but it is not damage as though hit by that basic attack.

-Hyp.
Ok, now what if the basic attack deals 1d6 damage, plus 5 ongoing damage(save ends)? What if it negates all immunities of the target and then deals damage? etc.

Oh, and the sneak attack thing is moot - the sneak attack rules state that the damage can only be applied once per round, so even if there was a power that said "10 attacks, dex vs will, hit: apply sneak attack damage", you would only be able to apply the damage to one attack - there's no specific term that says "you may apply sneak attack damage more than once", so you can't.

Some other ones... do you apply extra damage from feats/magic weapons etc. It's still an attack that uses a weapon, and there is still a damage roll.

What about crits? Can the attack crit, or does the wording prohibit dealing damage as if struck by a crit?

What if the foe has 2 or more basic attacks available?

What if I'm hitting a foe who deals extra damage when the target is afflicted with a condition? For example: the foe deals extra damage if it has combat advantage - does this apply if I have combat advantage? Or only if the foe has combat advantage vs itself (ie - it's prone or unconscious)?
 

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