D&D General [+] For (hypothetical) 6e: Which arcane caster class should be the "simple" one?

[tetrasodium]

i don't think what they chose to do to warlock in 5e was a mistake, honestly i think they ought to of made more of the casters with 'weird progression' rather than having them all as standardized as they are, different progressions don't add as much complexity as people seem to think they would, and as i have mentioned previously in the thread, i don't think there ought to be any single assigned simple caster but rather subclasses throughout the casters that offer simpler playstyles.

"Weird progression"? I agree that there should have been more scaling rates than 5e gave us, but there's nothing "weird" about the 5e warlock's progression. Hexblade and EB don't have "weird" progression, they have identical progression to fighter extra attack but it's improved by shedding the multiclass triggered scaling slowdown fighter sees. Pact slot level bumps aren't "weird" either, they happen at levels identical to when wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid with an easier recovery till they flip over from pact to being gained at identical levels with mystic arcanum. "Weird" progression is fine and 3.x even had some with various fractional casters but the5e warlock is trying to simultaneously spin every plate that any class spins at equal power level while still using "simple" reasoning to justify one more equal plate. It's no coincidence that so many of the silly OP builds rely on some flavor of warlock.

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Ah sure! Thats a good side discussion. What could we do in a sinole caster without ressources.


well "Cantrips" for me are "at will spells". So this can of course look different than 5e cantrips. It can be like the 13th ages auto scaling (like leveled spells) at will spells.

Of course you could also do something like taking normal spells, being able zo cast them an unlimited number of times but on a lower level, the only problem is that at low level like level 1 you would need to invent lower casting levels for these spells to work.


A simple spellcaster could also have "rituals". Which may be different than normal "at will spells" as they need to be cast outside combat and take a long while.


This could of course be non combat spells, but one could also do "armor of agathys" as a ritual or similar "limited buffs". Important here is that the number of rituals is limited else it becomes again complicated. (This could also include creating magical items, which only last a limited time (Wyrdwood wand the rpg allows that with some rituals))


another thing which could be used would be auras /aspects. Of which you only can have 1 active at a time. (This is something some simple 4e classes used).

5e paladin auras or 3.5 binder vestiges come to mind here. (Again not too many and not too complicated).

So like the 4e runepriest or the 4e vestige warlock. You have 2 states which give different aspects from which you can choose (and change from one into the other). Runepriest gave kind of an aura and vestiges warlock debuff on enemy you attack or selfbuff when an enemy dies.




Well magic does not necessarily mean that these exact spells need to be there. There are also less powerfull magic subsystems.


Also non combat spells like tiny hut can easily be rituals and with this in a different subsystem than spellcasting (like 4e did).


Also depending of the magic powerlevel the martial power level can be equal.

A legsweep can be a multi targeted attack (on a small scale) which can hinder enemy mobility (like web). On a bigger scale you could as a martial shatter the ground with your immense strength.

Hold person is literally just a grab. Or if you want a disabling effect: A punch to the solar plexus.

Debuffs could be holds which break arms or legs. (or just make them hurt a lot if its temporary).


So there is no reason to only make simple martials nor to make only complex casters.

You are feature creeping it pretty far beyond "simple" and broadening the scope of what the power budget should contain while holding hard to "power level can be equal", that's kinda why I brought up the need the narrow the question more than an impossibly broad "arcane caster" & why people keep bringing up stuff like the 3.5warlock & 5e arcane archer. By having things like extra attack & spell-like abilities rather than spells from some other class it allows the power budget for those spell like abilities to be pretty decent without being as restrictive as fractional caster leveled spell slots like 5e EK/AT/etc.

 

[Remathilis]

i don't think what they chose to do to warlock in 5e was a mistake, honestly i think they ought to of made more of the casters with 'weird progression' rather than having them all as standardized as they are, different progressions don't add as much complexity as people seem to think they would, and as i have mentioned previously in the thread, i don't think there ought to be any single assigned simple caster but rather subclasses throughout the casters that offer simpler playstyles.

My point was that the 3.5 warlock was a very simple arcane "caster" that didn't use spell slots that morphed in 5e into one of the most complex classes to build and level and is absolutely not new player friendly. It would have been nice if there was a simple subclass version of the warlock, but the complexity is right in the core class. There is no way to build a "simple" warlock, only a poorly-optimized one.

 

[Tigris]

"Weird progression"? I agree that there should have been more scaling rates than 5e gave us, but there's

You are feature creeping it pretty far beyond "simple" and broadening the scope of what the power budget should contain while holding hard to "power level can be equal", that's kinda why I brought up the need the narrow the question more than an impossibly broad "arcane caster" & why people keep bringing up stuff like the 3.5warlock & 5e arcane archer. By having things like extra attack & spell-like abilities rather than spells from some other class it allows the power budget for those spell like abilities to be pretty decent without being as restrictive as fractional caster leveled spell slots like 5e EK/AT/etc.

these were examples of things being possible not all things a simple class needs to have.

 

[CreamCloud0]

"Weird progression"? I agree that there should have been more scaling rates than 5e gave us, but there's nothing "weird" about the 5e warlock's progression. Hexblade and EB don't have "weird" progression, they have identical progression to fighter extra attack but it's improved by shedding the multiclass triggered scaling slowdown fighter sees. Pact slot level bumps aren't "weird" either, they happen at levels identical to when wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid with an easier recovery till they flip over from pact to being gained at identical levels with mystic arcanum. "Weird" progression is fine and 3.x even had some with various fractional casters but the5e warlock is trying to simultaneously spin every plate that any class spins at equal power level while still using "simple" reasoning to justify one more equal plate. It's no coincidence that so many of the silly OP builds rely on some flavor of warlock.

i was only using the term after Remathilis used it first and i wasn't using it derogatorily either, but i believe they were using it in the sense that everything else follows the same couple of rough progressions of number/levels of slots, like how there's no caster who goes for quantity over quality on having a whole bunch of low level slots.

 

[SkidAce]

Simple Caster, nothing but cantrips, number known equal to prof, swap one on level up.

 

[Remathilis]

i was only using the term after Remathilis used it first and i wasn't using it derogatorily either, but i believe they were using it in the sense that everything else follows the same couple of rough progressions of number/levels of slots, like how there's no caster who goes for quantity over quality on having a whole bunch of low level slots.

Basically. Every other class uses the "traditional" spellcasting system (in various full, half, and one-third progressions) while one single class breaks the rules. I will refrain from giving my further feelings on pact magic, but I can speak from experience that for less-experienced players, the shift from the traditional slot system to PM can cause a lot of confusion. (A player who had started with a ranger wanted to try a warlock next, and she was absolutely confused how slots scaled automatically and why she had so few of them, or how she got 6th level and higher spells.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Basically. Every other class uses the "traditional" spellcasting system (in various full, half, and one-third progressions) while one single class breaks the rules. I will refrain from giving my further feelings on pact magic, but I can speak from experience that for less-experienced players, the shift from the traditional slot system to PM can cause a lot of confusion. (A player who had started with a ranger wanted to try a warlock next, and she was absolutely confused how slots scaled automatically and why she had so few of them, or how she got 6th level and higher spells.

it's absolutely true and fair that people can get confused by different systems and structures, but is the standard spell system really much less complicated? i just think it's far more of a loss than a gain for 5e and the players the level of standardization the casters get and think there should be more classes that play with the spell progression formula/structure not less.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But that's how you get 40 variants of fireball that are the same effect with just different numbers of dice. Is better to have fireblast, fireball, pyroclasm, delayed blast fireball, flame cylinder, comet strike, meteor blast and nuclear winter fireball which only differs in size and dice?

I dunno, I don't think filling the spell list with cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds and cure critical wounds is much better.

Its all just Fireball.

At level whatever you print out the level whatever version of fireball.

I prefer the model of spending more to upgrade, personally, but it isnt a bad way to go.

 

[Blue]

Going to go a little hog wild here following a random thought. There's lots of good thoughts here and I'm not trying to replace any of them, I'm just thinking "what if 6e is further out-of-the-box".

Back when I started, Moldvay Basic only contained levels 1-3. You needed to grab the expert set to go higher. And much more recently we had 4e with an interesting system with a base class, a paragon class that added to levels 11-20, and an epic class that added to 21-30. But unlike subclasses, you could take any paragon or epic class that you qualified for. Something some were sad was missing from 5e.

Can we play around with this to make a couple of different casters, including a simple one? Sure, let's give it a shot.

Say 6e had a "foundation" class that you take from 1st to 5th that defines you chassis. You will take a different class after it, but this foundation class will impact how your later class advances and manifests.

Maybe we could have some foundational casters like:

Hedge Caster - Hedge witch, non-full-caster bard. simple caster, invocations to do things many other casters do with spells. No spells known, maybe slots to power some invocations.
Sage - learned caster, could be a traditional wizard. Most class power tied up in spells only.
Bloodline Caster - sorcerer niche, but with more focused spells known. Elementalists, whatever. Mid flexibility, and some power boosts.
Devoted - someone who gets their magic from a power source like a deity, patron, "nature", etc. Tiny base-class spell list, most spells granted by subclass (domain, patron, nature, etc). Due to less flexibility, gets more power elsewhere (better HD/proficiencies, extra powers, invocations, etc.)
Martial Caster - bladesingers, anime martial artists, arcane archers, paladins. Slots power things, self-buffs, volley spells, etc.

And multiclassing feats to get slower progression access. Like a ranger-type might be a skill monkey foundational class that gets a free multiclassing feat and uses it for Devoted (Nature).

Eh, it's all off the top of my head, not even sure if I like it.

 

[M_Natas]

So, lets see if my arcane blaster-idea can scratch the Itch of a "simple" caster class (limited to 10 Levels, right now):

Arcane Blaster​

An Arcane Blaster is a soldier trained to wield raw magic as a weapon. They are not taught theory, spell formulas, or arcane traditions. Instead, their bodies are conditioned to channel force directly, often at great personal risk. On the battlefield, Arcane Blasters function as living implements of war—durable, repeatable, and devastatingly consistent.

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Class Features​

As an Arcane Blaster, you gain the following class features.

Hit Points​

• Hit Dice: 1d10 per Arcane Blaster level
• Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + your Constitution modifier
• Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier per Arcane Blaster level after 1st

---

Proficiencies​

• Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
• Weapons: Simple weapons
• Tools: None
• Saving Throws: Constitution, Dexterity
• Skills: Choose two from Athletics, Arcana, Intimidation, Perception, Survival

---

Equipment​

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

• (a) scale mail or (b) leather armor
• (a) a shield or (b) any simple weapon
• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

---

Arcane Blaster Level Progression​

Level	Proficiency Bonus	Features
1	+2	Arcane Blast, Mana Surge
2	+2	Arcane Conditioning
3	+2	Blaster Specialization
4	+2	Ability Score Improvement
5	+3	Extra Attack
6	+3	Overcharged Discharge
7	+3	Blaster Specialization Feature
8	+3	Ability Score Improvement
9	+4	Arcane Resilience
10	+4	Battlefield Engine

---

Class Abilities​

Arcane Blast​

1st-level Arcane Blaster feature
You are trained to channel unstable arcane force directly through your body.
You gain the ability to make Arcane Blast attacks, which count as weapon attacks (not spells).
You can use Arcane Blast in one of the following ways:
Melee Arcane Blast

• Melee weapon attack
• On a hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage + your Constitution modifier
• This attack has a reach of 5 feet

Ranged Arcane Blast

• Ranged weapon attack
• Range: 60/180 feet
• On a hit, the target takes 1d8 force damage + your Constitution modifier

You are proficient with Arcane Blast.
Arcane Blast does not require a free hand and leaves no physical weapon behind.

---

Mana Surge​

1st-level Arcane Blaster feature
You can briefly push more power through your arcane channels.
You have a number of Mana Surge charges equal to your proficiency bonus. You regain all expended charges when you finish a short or long rest.
When you make an Arcane Blast attack, you may expend one Mana Surge charge to apply one of the following effects:

• Add 1d6 force damage to the attack on a hit
• Gain advantage on the attack roll
• Increase the range of a ranged Arcane Blast to 120/360 feet for that attack

You may expend multiple Mana Surge charges on the same attack, up to a maximum number equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1).

---

Arcane Conditioning​

2nd-level Arcane Blaster feature
Your body has adapted to repeated exposure to arcane stress.

• Your hit point maximum increases by 1 per Arcane Blaster level (including 2nd level and retroactively for previous levels)
• You have advantage on Constitution saving throws made to resist exhaustion or to maintain physical control under stress (such as forced marches or environmental hazards)

---

Blaster Specialization​

3rd-level Arcane Blaster feature
You adopt a specialized battlefield doctrine that reflects your training.
Choose one of the following specializations:

• Artillerist
• Skirmisher

Your specialization grants features at 3rd and 7th level.

---

Ability Score Improvement​

4th- and 8th-level Arcane Blaster feature
You can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or two ability scores of your choice by 1.
As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

---

Extra Attack​

5th-level Arcane Blaster feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Both attacks may be Arcane Blasts.

---

Overcharged Discharge​

6th-level Arcane Blaster feature
You can force excess power through your arcane channels at a personal cost.
When you hit a creature with an Arcane Blast, you may expend 1 Mana Surge charge to deal an additional 1d8 force damage to the target.
When you do so, you take 1d6 force damage, which cannot be reduced or prevented in any way.

---

Arcane Resilience​

9th-level Arcane Blaster feature
Your system has learned to absorb arcane backlash.

• You gain resistance to force damage
• Whenever you expend one or more Mana Surge charges, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier

Temporary hit points gained this way do not stack.

---

Battlefield Engine​

10th-level Arcane Blaster feature
You are a stabilized arcane weapon platform.

• Your Arcane Blast damage dice increase:
  • Melee Arcane Blast: 1d12
  • Ranged Arcane Blast: 1d10
• Once per turn, when you expend a Mana Surge charge, you may treat one of those charges as not expended

---

Blaster Specializations​

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Artillerist​

You are trained to dominate territory and apply overwhelming force at range.

Arcane Barrage​

3rd-level Artillerist feature
When you hit a creature with a ranged Arcane Blast, one other creature of your choice within 5 feet of the original target takes force damage equal to your Constitution modifier.
This damage does not require an attack roll.

---

Suppressive Fire​

7th-level Artillerist feature
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an Arcane Blast, you may reduce that creature’s speed to 0 until the start of your next turn, provided the creature is Large or smaller.

---

Skirmisher​

You are trained for speed, repositioning, and close-quarters chaos.

Arcane Step​

3rd-level Skirmisher feature
After you hit a creature with an Arcane Blast, you may immediately teleport up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.

---

Kinetic Reversal​

7th-level Skirmisher feature
When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you may use your reaction to make a melee Arcane Blast against that creature.
On a hit, the target is pushed 10 feet directly away from you.