D&D General [+] For (hypothetical) 6e: Which arcane caster class should be the "simple" one?

Which (6e) caster class should be the "simple" one?


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I think sometimes defini

I don't think we need a fighter of the complexity of the 0e or 3e Fighter or Thief.
"Simple" I think will always be measured in comparison to other examples, we don't need something that is "absolutely simple".
Maybe there are players that really only want an auto-pilot character

But getting rid of the 5E spellcasting system seems the requirement for simple, because it really is a lot of complexity:
  • Spell descriptions are already a complex system: All that the boiler plate that defines the basics of the spell, like range, action, school, level, up-cast benefits, and than the actual spell description which has its own rules.
  • The way you learn and prepare spells - especially since for some classes, these are seperate things - has its own complexity, that they are similar but different makes it worse.
  • Casting spells involves managing multiple similar but discrete resources in the form of spell slots.
I would definitely settle for "has at least a subclass that is as simple as a spell-less fighter or rogue subclass." This removes a lot of complex subsystems, but of couse it will still leave some subsystems to manage. The existing ighter or rogue however don't need to be optimzied to our simple distinction, just the first thing to compare toward.

That's still not as simple as a 0e Fighter. It might be as simple as some 3E Fighters (because the Fighter bonus feats in 3E did almost require you to get involved in the 3E complex subsystems like Tripping, Disarming, Sundering, Power Attack, Attacks of Opportunities, Grappling and so on, or at least require you to look at them before you discard them for "simple" feats...)

Ideally the choices at each level should be clear and limited, but there should still be some choices over the levels (maybe in addition to choices provided by subclasses). I think part of that is about presentation - instead of giving a lot of options you have to consider every round, spell out what each feature or ability is for more clearly. Instead of saying choosing 2 spells from a list of dozens or more, you get a choice like. "You get a magic ability to help you move on the battlefield, these are your n options, where n might somtimes be the number of subclasses."
Alterantively, it might be "You know that ability that helps you get around the battlefield? This subclass lets you leave behind a wall of fire in your tracks, and that one lets you teleport instead, and this one lets you take a friend with you."

Particularly in combat, there shoud also be still some class-specific choices left, but they could probably be more siloed. A spell can be anything - attack, heal, control, buff, or utility for travel or information gathering or something else. And it could be any level and any type of action. This can often lead to analysis paralysis.

To counter this, I think you need to define the options in some sort of silos that you can distinguish.
Say, you explicitely have a magic action that either attacks, heals, controls, buffs or has some utility (like for travel, exploration). Each subclass might add its unique features for that (and maybe not all offer every option). But you still have different options each round, and must decide which one to take. Analysis Paralysis isn't gone entirely, but the space of options is smaller, and more straightforward, the biggest thing is to figure out if you rather want to attack, control, heal, buff or check if your utilities can help.

I'd still say layering a simple mana/force/focus/maneuver/resource point system on top is okay, even if that is additional complexity.
The goal would be that at least some, if not all, subclassses keep that pretty straightforward, like simply boosting the available actions. So you can at least say "I hit it, but with emphasis" and have a bit of tactical choices. "Okay, now that I have advantage, I boost my attack's damage", "now that I have disadvantage, I rather provide a buff to an ally". "now that my ally is reduced to 0 hit points, I provide him with a bigger heal"


Really? It's not that complicated. People are making it complicated. Because on this forum, most people are very knowledgeable about the game and they can increase the complication of their simple class to match their level of play.

However, it would be very simple to silo off abilities for a simple arcane caster by giving them light, mage hand, and prestidigitaion which are not combat actions.

Then, you silo away their combat action.

They have buckets of 2 combat cantrips and that's what they have.

Fire bolt and Ray of Frost for Elementalist.
Shocking grasp and thunderwave for Storm Mage
Poison Spray and Chill Touch for Death Mage.

There you would only have to learn 2 attack cantrips. Just that. And buff them automatically as you level. You dont even need to get into the weapon system rules.

From there, you can still silo off multiple simple subclasses. A subclass with more defense, A subclass with more attack cantrips. A subclass with more utility cantrips. A subclass that's more damage based.

It can be done.

My point is that the fighter is a poor example of what you would do. Because the fighter itself was designed to have simplicity in it in a small sliver in order to placate giving it to a nuclear with only one option. And after that option, the entire rest of the class was designed for experts and being complex.

The fighter barbarian, Sorcerer and warlock were all designed working backwards from complexity to simplicity. Because the target audience for them was never people who wanted simplicity.
 

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I think sometimes defini

I don't think we need a fighter of the complexity of the 0e or 3e Fighter or Thief.
"Simple" I think will always be measured in comparison to other examples, we don't need something that is "absolutely simple".
Maybe there are players that really only want an auto-pilot character
The 3.x fighter was not simple at all. It got a great every other level
 


Folks can, of course, view the answers of anyone who's voted, so people can see I voted Sorcerer and brand-new class. More or less, if any of the existing core classes has to be the "simple" caster, then Sorcerer is closest to that IMO and IME. But I think the need is better served with a class designed from the ground up to be that simple.

And yes, I did put a modicum of effort into designing a "Mage" class which would be the Extremely Simple Caster compared to the existing options. I didn't go too far with it though, as I have other ideas I'm more interested in fleshing out first.
 


I think the issue for this is

The Wizard Class​


As long as the main gimmick for the wizard class is simply I have all the spells. And I have a spellbook., this offers little room for a simple arcane caster, outside of being a cancer user, because the second a simple caster has just spell slots it is in direct competition with the wizard..

The wizard class is just spellbook and spell slots.

So trying to make a simple class that is just spell slots plus not offer you much room to still remain simple..
 

I think the issue for this is

The Wizard Class​


As long as the main gimmick for the wizard class is simply I have all the spells. And I have a spellbook., this offers little room for a simple arcane caster, outside of being a cancer user, because the second a simple caster has just spell slots it is in direct competition with the wizard..

The wizard class is just spellbook and spell slots.

So trying to make a simple class that is just spell slots plus not offer you much room to still remain simple..
agreed, and it's not like you couldn't replicate 90% of the wizard experience with just a sorcerer subclass that has a spellbook and a spell school specialization choice leaving a no gimmicks pure spellcasting focused mage to be the 'simple caster'
 

I think the issue for this is

The Wizard Class​


As long as the main gimmick for the wizard class is simply I have all the spells. And I have a spellbook., this offers little room for a simple arcane caster, outside of being a cancer user, because the second a simple caster has just spell slots it is in direct competition with the wizard..

The wizard class is just spellbook and spell slots.

So trying to make a simple class that is just spell slots plus not offer you much room to still remain simple..
I agree that wizards have too much ppwer in their mainclass. Thats why I would do wizard as a subclass for a mage like explained here: D&D General - [+] For (hypothetical) 6e: Which arcane caster class should be the "simple" one?



Well a simple caster does not necessary need to use "spell slots" that concept is complex by its own, but even if onr uses spell slots there are things to do to make it simpler here some ways how it can work.

no spell slots just cantrips but stronger ones or ones which get stronger under certain conditions​
Having fixed spells selected (which can be used per encounter or so) instead of having spell slots​
Only 1 level of spell slots (Highest level). Tracking 1 ressource is a lot easier than tracking up to 9​
You could even just call it spell points and casting 1 spell costs 1 point and they scale automatically like PF2 focus spells​
Combined with the above one could also just reduce the number of spell knos A LOT like to 2 or 3.​
 

I agree that wizards have too much ppwer in their mainclass. Thats why I would do wizard as a subclass for a mage like explained here: D&D General - [+] For (hypothetical) 6e: Which arcane caster class should be the "simple" one?



Well a simple caster does not necessary need to use "spell slots" that concept is complex by its own, but even if onr uses spell slots there are things to do to make it simpler here some ways how it can work.

no spell slots just cantrips but stronger ones or ones which get stronger under certain conditions​
Having fixed spells selected (which can be used per encounter or so) instead of having spell slots​
Only 1 level of spell slots (Highest level). Tracking 1 ressource is a lot easier than tracking up to 9​
You could even just call it spell points and casting 1 spell costs 1 point and they scale automatically like PF2 focus spells​
Combined with the above one could also just reduce the number of spell knos A LOT like to 2 or 3.​
I kinda disagree, it's not the wizard main class that carries the problem. The problem is found in choices 5e made to streamline & simplify the various caster classes into a unified progression that ignored why there were differences.
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A wizard begins play with a spellbook
containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those
from her prohibited school or schools, if any;
see School Specialization, page 57) plus three
1st-level spells of your choice. For each
point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has
(see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and
Bonus Spells, page 8), the spellbook
holds one additional 1st-level spell
of your choice. At each new
wizard level, she gains two new
spells of any spell level or levels that
she can cast (based on her new
wizard level) for her spellbook.

In 5e they have identical slot progression and sorcerer largely matches the wizard with number of spells after you factor in the subclass bonus spells granted by the subclasses people regularly choose. The differences between the two was muddied away.
 

I kinda disagree, it's not the wizard main class that carries the problem. The problem is found in choices 5e made to streamline & simplify the various caster classes into a unified progression that ignored why there were differences.
View attachment 428207
A wizard begins play with a spellbook
containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those
from her prohibited school or schools, if any;
see School Specialization, page 57) plus three
1st-level spells of your choice. For each
point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has
(see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and
Bonus Spells, page 8), the spellbook
holds one additional 1st-level spell
of your choice. At each new
wizard level, she gains two new
spells of any spell level or levels that
she can cast (based on her new
wizard level) for her spellbook.

In 5e they have identical slot progression and sorcerer largely matches the wizard with number of spells after you factor in the subclass bonus spells granted by the subclasses people regularly choose. The differences between the two was muddied away.
If we’re trying to find the main source of complexity in 5e casters, it’s probably spell slots in general rather than the specific applications.

A simple (by DnD standards) caster is probably going to need to either not use spell slots in the base class or use a very streamlined version similar to what warlocks do.

I think what you we really want mechanically is closer to a 5e warlock without invocations than a 5e sorcerer, but the sorcerer narrative fits a lot better.

Putting a lot of the class’s power in enhanced cantrips can keep the balance pretty good while leaving room for subclasses to go in many different directions.
 

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