For Nail: Does no Dex bonus mean automatic failure on reflex saves?

[S'mon]

I would give grappling characters a Reflex save, but without DEX bonus. It's perfectly plausible - maybe the grappling character uses his grapple-partner as a shield? However Pinned characters are immobile and should not get Reflex saves IMO. Personally I'd think it should be possible to coup-de-gras Pinned characters, but the rules say 'immobile but not helpless', so I guess you can't.

 

[fett527]

I do apologize if this has been debated before. Quite honestly I never even considered auto failing reflex saves until I read Nail's post and definitely have never read threads on it before. I'm glad I started this thread as I see there is some debate and no clear answer from the Sage or otherwise.

For my opinion on the matter, there obviously seem to be situations where a PC would automatically fail a reflex save opportunity. Do I think being grappled is one of those? No. The character should only lose his dex bonus as stated in the grapple rules. No 0 dex, just lose their dex bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The character should only lose his dex bonus as stated in the grapple rules. No 0 dex, just lose their dex bonus.

Of course, the grapple rules state they lose Dex bonus to Armor Class, not to Reflex Saves.

-Hyp.

 

[fett527]

Of course, the grapple rules state they lose Dex bonus to Armor Class, not to Reflex Saves.

-Hyp.

Yes, it explicitly states that. I'm just giving my interpretation of the rule and extending that to reflex saves. You still have movement and can react while grappled, you just can't react as well as you normally could.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, it explicitly states that. I'm just giving my interpretation of the rule and extending that to reflex saves. You still have movement and can react while grappled, you just can't react as well as you normally could.

How about flat-footed, balancing, blind, or wearing splint mail?

-Hyp.

 

[fett527]

How about flat-footed, balancing, blind, or wearing splint mail?

-Hyp.

I feel like I'm being set up.

Flat-footed= no dex bonus to AC= no dex bonus to save
balancing= flat-footed= no dex bonus= no dex bonus to save (unless you have 5 or more ranks in balance which means you are not flat-footed while balancing)
blind= ("The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.")= no dex bonus to AC and -4 to dex based skills= no dex bonus to save and -4 to save
Wearing splint mail= armor check penalty -7= -7 to reflex saves

I understand your point, that by applying what I said about grappling that it has to be applied in the other situations you pointed out. I would have to do it the way I just laid it out.

Why should reflex saves be immune to anything that is detrimental to dexterity? (I hope I phrased that correctly)

 

[Nail]

For shame, Nail. Reversing your position like that. I clearly remember you siding with Wulf Ratbane when the same argument occured about the ruling made by Dinkledog that Reflex saves don't apply when grappled.

Ouch! Ouch!



Someone's memory is way too good!

.....could I claim that I was just rooting for the good guys? (That dwarf rocked; no two ways about it.)

Anyway, the 3.5e rules don't say you auto-fail Ref saves while grappled, and frankly I can see how you could argue eiether side of that. As Hyp. correctly pointed out, the rules also don't say that you lose your dex bonus to the Ref saves...although that seems like a reasonable inference.

Pinned: Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple.

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

Being pinned doesn't make you helpless? Being helpless doesn't make you automatically fail Ref saves?

Huh.

 

[Nail]

I feel like I'm being set up.

You've guessed correctly....

Wearing splint mail= armor check penalty -7= -7 to reflex saves.

This is incorrect. Just showing you understand Hyp.'s point, I trust?

 

[fett527]

You've guessed correctly....


This is incorrect. Just showing you understand Hyp.'s point, I trust?

Yes I am, and I know there is no rule basis for the items I laid in response to Hyp. However, if I was a DM, which I am not, and I made the decision about grappling and no dex bonus to reflex saves, I would be inclined to enforce the other points as well. These were definitely my opinons on the matter; I was not trying to quote rules.

And my question remains: Why should (which it seems they are) reflex saves be immune to anything that is detrimental to dexterity? (I hope I phrased that correctly)

Is there any official word on this or any opinions for that matter?

 

[Stalker0]

There's never a condition where you DON't get a reflex save, because saves aren't just skill, as was said, they are luck.

So a firestorm aimed at a comrade in a coma still has a chance of only half damage, just because the comrade was in the right spot at the right time.

However, what to add to the save is a debate. At worst, I'd go with -5 (no dex). Just no bonus to dex is also a decent compromise.