For Nail: Does no Dex bonus mean automatic failure on reflex saves?

[Hypersmurf]

Being helpless doesn't make you automatically fail Ref saves?

Helpless - treated as having a Dex of 0.

Dexterity - "Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity."

Therefore, a creature with a Dex of 0 is not a creature with at least 1 point of Dexterity; therefore, a creature with a Dex of 0 is not a member of the set of "any creature that can move"; therefore, a creature with a Dex of 0 is a member of the set of "any creature that can not move"; therefore, a helpless creature cannot move.

Evasion: "As with a Reflex Save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to use Evasion."

How much room is "room to move" for a creature with a Dex of 1? The DMG example states that a 2.5 foot wide tunnel is "not enough". We know that a 5' wide square is enough, since you can Evade without leaving your own 5x5 square. So, for a Medium creature with at least one point of Dexterity, 5'x5' is certainly "room to move".

How much room is "room to move" for a creature with a Dex of 0?

In a 2.5 foot wide tunnel - he can't move.
In a 5' square - he can't move.
In a 1000 foot wide open plain - he can't move.

Therefore, with a Dex of 0, it doesn't matter how much space there is around the character, he does not have room to move, and therefore cannot use Evasion.

... as with a Reflex Save for any creature.

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

Therefore, with a Dex of 0, it doesn't matter how much space there is around the character, he does not have room to move, and therefore cannot use Evasion.

... as with a Reflex Save for any creature.

Uhmm....sure. (I could parse your prose there, but I'm pretty sure I get your meaning.) But that's not really the question, is it?

I thought the question was: (paraphrased from fett527)
"Why do people that can't move still get Ref saves? Isn't that silly?"

 

[Hypersmurf]

I thought the question was: (paraphrased from fett527)
"Why do people that can't move still get Ref saves? Isn't that silly?"

It looked to me awfully like your question was "Being helpless doesn't make you automatically fail Ref saves?"

-Hyp.

 

[fett527]

It looked to me awfully like your question was "Being helpless doesn't make you automatically fail Ref saves?"

-Hyp.

My original question didn't have anything to do with helpless, it was based of the Tentacles thread and grappling and that Nail made a comment that I thought he was alluding to characters auotmatically failing reflex saves when denied dex bonus to AC. Obviously a misunderstanding of what Nail was saying. I have clarified my thoughts in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63995

 

[Artoomis]

Yes, it explicitly states that. I'm just giving my interpretation of the rule and extending that to reflex saves. You still have movement and can react while grappled, you just can't react as well as you normally could.

Well, that can't even be called an "interpretation." It's a house rule - a reasonable one, mind you, but no way can you claim it's only an "interpretation" of the rules.

Oddly enough, we have a forum here at ENWorld for discussing such things. It's called House Rules...

 

[fett527]

Well, that can't even be called an "interpretation." It's a house rule - a reasonable one, mind you, but no way can you claim it's only an "interpretation" of the rules.

Oddly enough, we have a forum here at ENWorld for discussing such things. It's called House Rules...

Wow, really??? Can you give me directions??

I knew the thread was leaning that way which is why I took my last few comments and formed a new question and started a new thread. I outlined that in my last post.

And of course I can say it's an interpretation of the rules. The rules were vague, I interpreted the rules on how I thought they should be and then if I wanted to I would make a house rule on that interpretation. I didn't want this to continue as a House Rule discussion which is why I tried to rephrase and start the new thread.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I feel like I'm being set up.

Wearing splint mail= armor check penalty -7= -7 to reflex saves

Don't forget the Max Dex bonus of +0...

-Hyp.

 

[scholz]

Evasion: "As with a Reflex Save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to use Evasion."

It wouldn't be the first time that a D&D rule referenced something that isn't written anywhere else. Maybe they intended the Reflex save to require movement, but were the case one would expect the write up for Reflex Save to make such a claim. Or for any of the conditions, like helpless, or held, or the like to mention, that a character in that condition fails all Reflex saves.

I think from a game play perspective, it probably would be a bad rule. The Saves are frequently the LAST chance a character has to survive. And if you deny those, especially when there are lots of spells and effects that can cause that which do not themselves have saving-throws.

Using realism seems a futile exercise. We could add all sort of circumstance modifiers for the degree of restraint, the lack of cover to dodge behind, the ability to spot the attack, etc.. But that seems more work for little effort. How would the game be better with such a rule?

Steve

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

By my reading, the spirit and letter of the rules is that you "never" mess with saving throws. It is really no more or less realistic than HP mechanics. In context, this seems like such small potatoes, I cannot worry over it.

I guess I see saving throws as HPs manifested as skills.