For Nail - The Psion

[Vurt]

Silent Spell only really helps if you get pinned. What you need if you're grappled is Still Spell... and there is no metamagic rod of Still Spell.

Thanks for the correction, Hyp. Can you tell my spellcasters rarely take metamagic feats? *GRIN*

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, for a sorcerer or wizard it can be. In the core rules, this is only over a rather limited range, but glitterdust and web are probably the premiere second level offensive spells and aren't ever completely outmoded. (I know my LG character still uses both at level 16 and I see a fair number of quickened glitterdusts in 6th level slots). Cloudkill can be good in the right circumstances and SF: Conjuration is useful for that too.

So under the core rules, I'd say it's marginally useful on the whole. Not worth a feat, but not utterly useless either.

Now, if you include non-core materials, however, SF: Conjuration becomes more worthwhile. I believe the MotP's Reality Maelstrom spell is a conjuration and SF: Conjuration is quite useful for the various energy orb spells from Complete Arcane (OK, so orb of fire is probably the most useful one there, since it's got the most powerful affect, but some of the others--blindness or entanglement--are useful too) as well as arc of lightning and vitriolic sphere. Considering that all of those spells will scale all the way to level 20 in usefulness (for instance, a maximized and empowered fire orb will usually deal more damage to a single target than a meteor swarm as well as having a chance to daze the target and reality maelstrom was evidently fingered as being overpowered, even for Sepulchrave's epic level game), I'd say there's a definite case for taking SF: Conjuration even without going for Augment Summoning. It may not be a compelling case for most characters, but I can imagine characters that would want it.

That's more than the psion needs to....and the psion can use Overchannel for other things. And I'd love you to try to argue that the Spell focus(conjuration) is useful.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's more like 3-4 feats, two of which are unnecessary at high levels, and two of which severely impede casting if used regularly. (Apply both to all your spells and it's like losing four levels). The advantage of the psion in this case is not just that he has options that take a sorcerer or wizard a feat, but that he has those options without the increased cost that sorcerers and wizards must pay to use them.

It's probably unfair to group all exclusive list powers into the psion comparison too, but I think it's quite reasonable to think that many psions will take advantage of the Expanded Knowledge option to learn at least one or two powers. I seem to recall that scions' psychic warrior builds in the PsyWar vs. Fighter thread did so. And, I know that all of the psions I've seen played have also done so. (Usually, it's non-shapers grabbing astral construct, but I've seen a seer grab energy missile). And most psions will have access to at least one good power from their exclusive list even without spending any feats, so it's not very realistic to leave discipline powers and powers from other classes entirely out of the equation either.

And before anyone gripes, "But with Combat Casting and Skill Focus, that's 3-4 feats!", well, that's precisely the same argument that gets swept aside when discussing psionic types taking multiple good powers off of other class power lists via Expanded Knowledge.

 

[Vurt]

It's more like 3-4 feats, two of which are unnecessary at high levels, and two of which severely impede casting if used regularly. (Apply both to all your spells and it's like losing four levels). The advantage of the psion in this case is not just that he has options that take a sorcerer or wizard a feat, but that he has those options without the increased cost that sorcerers and wizards must pay to use them.

At higher levels, Combat Casting and Skill Focus allow you to shift your skill rank priorities to other skills. This is not a big deal for a wizard, obviously, who gets mondo skill ranks from his Int score, but it is arguably more useful for a cleric or sorc, whose skill points tend to lag. It's not a big thing, to be sure, and at high levels, exchanging feats for skill points seems to be a losing proposition, but arguably half of the problem is getting the character to survive up to those high levels in the first place!

The key to using Still Spell, I would think, is to use it with low-level spells that are just handy in a tight pinch (or grope), like grease, ray of enfeeblement, enlarge person, and the poor wizard's lighting bolt (aka shocking grasp). That way you can save your higher level slots for the good stuff. That, and both Still and Silent only boost the slot up by one each. Keeping a lesser metamagic rod of silent spell handy for the pins, though, can save you a feat.

And while yes, the psion can do this without any feat investment, Combat Casting, Skill Focus, Still Spell and Eschew Materials are useful outside of grappling as well. That said, grappling the spellcaster is a tactic that is great if used sparingly and it works, but isn't guaranteed to do so. (The easiest way to defeat an unwelcome grappler is to have a friendly rogue nearby just itching for something to be denied its Dex bonus. Sure, your caster may be frustrated for a round or two, but in my experience, allowing the rogue to shine by saving the wizard's bacon can make for some truly memorable moments. And if nobody wants to play a rogue, maybe see if you can pick one up via the Leadership feat if you can.)

As for Expanded Knowledge, well if it's a problem in your game, the easiest solution is to remove the feat or allow it to be taken only once. In my games I've seen it come up exactly one time, with the party Telepath (detective type power and feat selection) picking up sensitivity to psychic impressions at 5th level instead of the ubiquitous energy missile. So really, YMMV. You're the one in the best position to know what your campaign is like and what is appropriate to it. By all means, if something is upsetting the delicate balance of your game, put a stop to it.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Al'Kelhar]

One quick note, under pulling your punches:... (corrects Al'Kelhar)

Well I'll be darned. Y'learn someting new every day. Thanks Patryn and Staffan.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Nail]

As for Expanded Knowledge, well if it's a problem in your game, the easiest solution is to remove the feat or allow it to be taken only once. In my games I've seen it come up exactly one time, with the party Telepath (detective type power and feat selection) picking up sensitivity to psychic impressions at 5th level instead of the ubiquitous energy missile. So really, YMMV. You're the one in the best position to know what your campaign is like and what is appropriate to it. By all means, if something is upsetting the delicate balance of your game, put a stop to it.

True. No arguement here.

I'd just rather be able to trust the rule-set of XPH, as I do for Core. Psionics could be an elegant magic system, smoothing over many of the glaring problems with the default magic system.

And, quite clearly: YMMV.

 

[Nail]

Now, if you include non-core materials, however, SF: Conjuration becomes more worthwhile.

Sure. The "orb" spells do make it more worthwhile....for Wiz/Sor. It's still mostly wasted with Clr/Drd. Ah-well.

 

[Vurt]

I'd just rather be able to trust the rule-set of XPH, as I do for Core. Psionics could be an elegant magic system, smoothing over many of the glaring problems with the default magic system.

I can only agree to that!

That said, one of my players and I share DM'ing responsibilities, and both our games are high-powered. We're using gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana along with the XPH, and I think the combination acts well to smooth over power inequalities in the psionic/magic spectrum.

For example, last session's encounter had the party (avg level 7) pitted against a gestalt troll Barbarian 5/Shaper 5 and his misc orc underlings. (EL 10) The most effective character in the fight was the Paladin/Cleric, who simply kept smiting. Second most effective had to be the Warmage/Rogue, who when it became clear the troll was resistant to fire, effortlessly switched to lesser acid orbs. The least effective turned out to be the Monk/Psywar (who couldn't hit the thing), and the Urban Ranger/Telepath. After the troll successfully saved against two fully augmented mind thrusts from the Telepath, the character was forced to spend the rest of the encounter trying to dispel the thing's buffs (specified energy adaption, concealing amorpha, force shield).

On the other hand, I think the DM was psychologically scarred when the Telepath almost single-handedly neutered his random encounter with 4 dire lions. One succumbed to crisis of breath, and two more were psionic charmed for 7 days. (There were no more random encounters that week, nor did anything accost them while the party was sleeping. )

My point is simply that it isn't terribly hard to challenge the psionically inclined characters, or to provide encounters that allow the non-psionic types to shine. Maybe psionics are overpowered, but in my games they haven't been overwhelmingly so. (And hence why Your Milage May Vary.) Traditional magic types still see plenty of use and viability, both as PC class options and as opponents. I personally feel that debating the issue here is somewhat masturbatory, in the sense that we can't go back in time and revise our copies of the XPH.

What we can do is freely share our experiences, good and bad, and our solutions to problems that have commonly arisen in our own games. If we can get past the heated antagonism and misgivings this topic seems to regularly invoke, all our games can benefit from it. Even if it could be proven once and for all that the psion was overpowered, we would still be left with what to do about it. I simply recommend we skip the middle step.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Nail]

....What we can do is freely share our experiences, good and bad, and our solutions to problems that have commonly arisen in our own games.

Agreed.

In my current game, I DM along with 2 to 3 others. We've agreed to accept Core + splatbooks + XPH, with the understanding that some things might be houseruled at some later time. For the most part, that's never happened: we've got extremely few houserules.

Regarding the Psion(shaper): I was the DM for levels 12 thru 15. I'm a pretty tough DM => 17 deaths over 8 gaming sessions. In that time period, every single character died at least once.....except the psion.

Read that over gain, 'cause it bears repeating.

Now, gaming style, as well as raw power, often heavily affect things like this. That's a given. To make sure I wasn't just letting the psion off easy, I specifically tailored many of the later encounters to put him at "exceptional risk". Mooks with the Mageslayer feat chain. Severe limits on teleportation and scrying. Monsters immune to mind-affecting magic. Creatures that could teleport as a purely mental action. BBEGs that singled out the psion. Energy resistance, spell/power resistance, Spell turning, etc.

The psion came close (like during the combat with the CR 20 guardian demon Kerzit - they were APL 13, BTW), but was always able to both significantly contribute to the fight's outcome and keep himself alive. Precious few times did he come close to running out of pp. Never (yep: never) did he actually run out of pp.

So....you see where I'm coming from.

Psionic powers/feats that caused the most "trouble": (note the quotes!)

• Mass Ectoplasmic Coccoon
• Psychic Reformation
• "Crystal Storm" (some Dragon Mag power, no SR, 7d4 Con dam when overchanneled!)
• Overchannel feat
• Psionic body feat
• Astral Construct (overchanneled and Boosted)
• Dimensional slide (as a move action)
• the huge duration of many of the defensive powers
• etc.

I'm sure there are more.

.....Let me put all of that stuff above aside for a moment to say this: We are having fun. I enjoy playing with the player of the Psion(shaper). We're unlikely to house-rule this stuff away.

 

[Vurt]

The psion came close (like during the combat with the CR 20 guardian demon Kerzit - they were APL 13, BTW), but was always able to both significantly contribute to the fight's outcome and keep himself alive. Precious few times did he come close to running out of pp. Never (yep: never) did he actually run out of pp.

So....you see where I'm coming from.

Oh definitely. A well-built psion is very survivable. This can be a good thing, though. It means the campaign doesn't have to end if one of them can get back to town and true res the rest after a particularly nasty encounter.

How much does the character contribute outside of combat? For instance, the power adapt body is personal, so what does the party do when they have to go to some underwater venue to perform or retrieve something? What happens when the king of the realm decides to limit adventuring in his domain to his personal friends, which don't happen to include the party members? I find combats a fun challenge, but sometimes I like throwing things at them that don't have any obvious solutions just to see what they can come up with.

Psionic powers/feats that caused the most "trouble": (note the quotes!)

• Mass Ectoplasmic Coccoon
• Psychic Reformation
• "Crystal Storm" (some Dragon Mag power, no SR, 7d4 Con dam when overchanneled!)
• Overchannel feat
• Psionic body feat
• Astral Construct (overchanneled and Boosted)
• Dimensional slide (as a move action)
• the huge duration of many of the defensive powers
• etc.

I'm sure there are more.

.....Let me put all of that stuff above aside for a moment to say this: We are having fun. I enjoy playing with the player of the Psion(shaper). We're unlikely to house-rule this stuff away.

I understand that you're unwilling to remove these powers completely, but are you amenable to trying out minor variations on them? For instance, if psychic reformation is getting used more often than you'd like, how about adding a caveat to the power that when reforming, the power itself must also be reformed away? Then the player could always pick it up every level if he desires, but it limits its use to only extreme circumstances, and even then only once per level.


Perhaps you could introduce a small percentage chance that an overchanneled astral construct gets enough added juice to gain sentience and free will, overcoming the mental shackles of its summoner. "I'm alive!" (Think Dr. Frankenstein's monster.) Perhaps it demands compensation, added responsibility, maybe even a pet or two for its service. ("Can I have your familiar?") Or perhaps something goes wrong and it goes randomly berzerk. This could be especially entertaining if this happens at a critical juncture and sides with the party's opponents. ("The enemy of my enemy is my friend!")


If everyone is having fun, though, perhaps its best to just go with the flow, accept that the psion's player "has won", and just keep throwing more and more entertaining and unbelievable encounters for the party to overcome. Ultimately so long as everyone is enjoying the game, everyone wins.


Cheers,
Vurt