For Nail - The Psion

[KarinsDad]

Nor can they be counterspelled. Sounds like a net benefit to me!

Incorrect.

The Magic Transparency rules and the Counterspell rules of Dispel Magic allow them to be counterspelled (even though they are not casting spells).

 

[Scion]

Internal Inconsistency

Please check the title of the forum you are in.

Also, what you have said is very subjective, much like the 'common sense' rulings.

The reasoning you have given above is very similar to why some dms disallow reflex saves from fireballs unless you are standing behind something (yes, I have heard this houserule. no, not just from one guy).

 

[Scion]

Incorrect.

The Magic Transparency rules and the Counterspell rules of Dispel Magic allow them to be counterspelled (even though they are not casting spells).

I have actually seen reasoning on both sides of this issue, that is why I asked what logic path nail was following to make the conclusion

 

[Spatula]

Enervation is one of those big weaknesses I was talking about that people dont usually consider. Fairly easy for the caster types to do

Fairly easy for sorcerer and wizards. There's no core method for other caster types to access the spell.

but the psion has very limited defenses

...which puts the psion in the same boat as everyone else. Negative levels are hard to avoid.

and no real counterpart.

What is Mindwipe, then?

(the overall point is sound - enervation is very useful against psions, as it is against all pure casters)

 

[Scion]

enervation isnt mind effecting nor does it give a save (touch attack vs saving throw, generally I consider the touch attack to be the more powerful option, as it can critical and be used in special attacks like sneak attack, but can be a tough call)

But it is very close, I was thinking that it had a longer manifestation time for some reason. Probably thinking of a different power though.

I actually had a npc undead caster use enervation to charge himself up every once in awhile..sort of like his own little drug Not a viable option for the psionic version will have to houserule it I guess.

 

[dedicated]

one thing you guys need to take into mind when gauging a psions damage power is that spells are more commonly area affecting then powers
(at least for lower levels, my party has only had one psion (he worked out fine))

 

[Spatula]

These threads have been around since the XPH has come out, and we still have the same posters (primarily Scion and Thanee) making the same arguments they were over a year ago. Don't you guys ever get sick of making the same posts, directed to the same people, over and over? How about a psionics-is-overpowered-no-its-not thread that the 'old guard' doesn't turn into the latest platform to voice their disagreement with each other on the topic?

Just an idea.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As I said before, it does effect casters more than manifestors, generally speaking. However, as we get into higher levels the caster types will effectively always have an answer for it, or they are simply asking to be killed. Blocking off weaknesses is part of high level play. There are quite a few ways around this, some easier than others, some more mundane than others.

But, I did say that psions have an easier time, but they are both hindered by it.

If you're going to admit that psions have an easier time with grapples and are completely unaffected by silence, then why do you continue to maintain that conventional casters are just as difficult to shut down as psions?

Also, there are spells with no somatic components, and the divine casters will tend to have an easier time at it than the arcane guys also. Once again, there are differences in the weaknesses but there are issues that are shared.

These are what constitutes the conventional casters backup plans for covering their weaknesses. Not having nearly as much of a weakness to cover (and having most of the same ways to cover it) is an advantage for psions.

In a way, this is like hit points. Wizards have a weakness in not having many hit points (especially after a full attack from an enemy). Fighters-types also have a weakness in not having as many hit points as they would like (especially after a full attack from a worthy foe). I could join you in saying that "barbarians will have an easier time of it than fighters. Once again, there are weaknesses, but there are issues that are shared," but it would obscure rather than enlighten. Fighters have an easier time dealing with damage taken from enemies than wizards have. That's an advantage. In the same way, psions have an easier time dealing with grapples than conventional casters.

Same goes for a number of classes actually, especially the rogue. I believe I saw somewhere that people wanted to change that spells grapple bonus to be much less than what it is. (also, I would expect anyone who can cast high enough spells to have some sort of contingency plan in case something bad like this happens, if not why is it the psions fault?)

Quite right. Sorcerers and wizards have backup plans to deal with grapples (such as those from evards). Psions don't need a backup plan nearly as much. That is an advantage.

Last time I checked, barbarians and fighters have backup plans for dealing with [Fear] effects (most of which involve hero's feast or buying a scroll of remove fear for the cleric). However, paladins are immune to fear and that constitutes one of their advantages over other fighting classes. One can argue that the paladin's immunity to fear is counterbalanced by his disadvantages and the other classes advantages, or even that the backup plans are so good that it doesn't make much difference, but it would be silly to say that immunity to fear is not an advantage. Similarly, it's silly for you to argue that being able to manifest all their powers in a grapple is not an advantage for psions.

So, you want to change the psion instead of the broken spell? That makes no sense what-so-ever EB.

Last I checked, this thread wasn't about asking what's broken and what should be changed; it's about which classes are stronger. And being able to ignore a broken spell seems like it makes a class stronger to me.


Lets just say that spell turning is a very poweful spell. There is a defense against an incredibly large number of spells and powers and works much, much more effectively against psions than against other casters generally. (psions have a lot of short range targetting powers)

Other casters tend to be able to cast at much longer ranges also along with having some spells with near infinite versitility that can work in a number of situations (such as the shadow spells, or even illusions in general which the psions have no powers that compare).

you gave three of which one is completely effective, one only slightly less effective against the psion than the caster (this because there are a number of ways for the caster to avoid such situations or get out of them once they happen, more than the psion has, so one is more susceptable but has an easier time getting away while the other is less susceptable but has a harder time getting away), and one that is completely broken as written.

I don't think you've properly looked at the ways to deal with grapples if you think that psions have fewer ways to avoid or escape grapples than conventional casters.

For escaping, conventional casters have:
dimension door, teleport, contingency (blink, polymorph, grease, dimension door, gaseous form, etc), greater teleport

For resisting they have:
blink, freedom of movement, gaseous form, shapechange, polymorph, grease, enlarge, divine power, and righteous might.

Psions have psionic freedom of movement, grip of iron, dimension slide, metamorph, expansion, etc.

While some of those powers are only on one specialty list and others are not on all psionic class lists, it's equally true that no conventional caster has access to all of the spells listed and many of them are significantly less useful for helping the caster himself. (Grease and enlarge person, for instance are not spells that would usually be cast on the caster prior to being grappled and cannot be cast in the grapple).

In fact, psions actually have more flexibility with their anti-grapple powers than conventional casters since they can actually manifest metamorphasis or psionic freedom of movement while in a grapple while the conventional equivalents need to either be stilled, contingent, or cast prior to being grappled in order to be useful.

More to the point, psions will often not need to break out of the grapple at all. A psion in a grapple can still manifest an astral construct, an energy missile, a psionic domination, etc. Nine times out of ten, a conventional caster will need to escape the grapple before taking offensive action.

I'm pretty sure that 9 out of 10 conventional caster players would jump at the chance to spend a feat (or two) to be able to cast in all their spells in a grapple with just the grapple check to stop them. That they don't just have that option, but have it built in makes it an advantage for psions.

If those are the best of the best for taking out casters then it can easily be said that it must be hard to shut them down. If it is hard to shut one down and just as hard to shut another down (like it tends to be hard to shut down just about any class completely) then there isnt much that is wrong here.

I fail to see how being completely invulnerable to one of the three most common and effective tactics for shutting down conventional casters (even if it's "broken") and significantly less vulnerable to another constitutes being "just as hard to shut another down." By my reckoning, it looks like it's at least twice as hard to "shut the other down." Where I come from, we call that kind of thing an advantage. In this case, it's an advantage that psions have over conventional casters.

Still, mages are pretty fragile for a number of reasons, but then so are psions. Psions tend to not care as much about some of the things that really effect mages but are more hindered in other areas.

If enervation is the best example of this you can come up with, then there aren't any significant "other areas" where psions are more hindered. Enervation hoses pretty much everyone and losing your highest 1d4 prepared spells or castings per day is just as bad as losing power points. (In fact, one might argue that it's worse since an enervated psion will generally be able to manifest his highest level powers--he just won't be able to do it as often as he'd like; conventional casters, OTOH, simply lose their highest level spells and have no way of sacrificing lower level castings to cast them anyway).

I don't see any particular reason to believe that psions are more vulnerable to spell turning than conventional casters either. Unless a psion is a pure telepath, he's got lots of good powers that aren't susciptible to being turned on him (energy ray, crystal ray, dissipating touch, energy ball, astral construct, psionic disintegrate, etc). Those aren't exactly uncommon or weak powers. And, if the psion is exclusively focussed on targetted powers, that's no different from a conventional caster who is exclusively focussed on targetted spells. Enchanters are hosed by spell turning just as much as telepaths.

As for spell ranges, that's somewhat off topic. The topic of this particular part of the thread is the relative vulnerabilities of psions and conventional casters--not their relative abilities. However, in this regard, it needs to be said that illusions and long range spells are the province of wizards and sorcerers--not conventional casters in general. Clerics, for instance, have few, if any long range spells. Most of their spells are short (command, greater command sound burst, destruction), medium (flame strike, spiritual weapon, searing light), or even touch (harm, bestow curse, slay living). Similarly, unless they have access them through domains, clerics and druids don't have any illusions at all. If you want to compare the vulnerabilities of psions to specifically sorcerers and wizards rather than conventional casters in general, that's a different kettle of fish. (For starters, we could say that psions and wilders have more and better ways to increase their AC (and hence avoid spell disruption) than sor/wiz characters and have access to more ways to resist as well as to escape grapples)

If people feel that mages are treated unfairly in this comparison then maybe getting rid of a few sacred cows will help.

So what you're saying is that psions are more powerful than sorcerers or wizards but that just means sorcerers and wizards should be able to wear armor without spell failure and there shouldn't be a silence spell.... To me, that sounds like you're conceeding the point--psions are more powerful than conventional casters--but just adding the argument that this means conventional casters need more power rather than psions needing nerfing.

 

[Scion]

If you're going to admit that psions have an easier time with grapples and are completely unaffected by silence, then why do you continue to maintain that conventional casters are just as difficult to shut down as psions?

Lol!!

Ok, I can pretty much sum up an answer to most of your post right here. I have already gone over it repeatidly, but hey, whatever

Psions are less hindered by some things and more hindered by others. I already said they had slightly different issues with grappling than other casters.

Still though, for every advantage that you can come up with one direction there is a disadvantage in another. However, whenever the disadvantages are brought up they are swept under the rug with people saying, 'well, it isnt important'. Well guess what, because of that I have no problem doing it right back at the nay sayers.

Which brings me to this:

As for spell ranges, that's somewhat off topic.

Again, anything that the other casters do better is apparently irrelevant, anything that the psions do better is broken. Anyone else see a problem here?

In some games the longest of ranges might not matter, but I would assume that in most games the difference between short and medium range will definately be felt. With so many psionic powers falling into the personal and short range instead of longer ranges this is a pretty serious drawback. Much, much larger than even if the psion was completely immune to grapples (which he isnt by a long shot) and silence (broken spell, if we are going to say that broken spells are ok to court around then I'll bring up gate and end the discussion right there as it beats effectively everything else out there).

Range is very important. Incredibly so.

Also, nearly all of the powers that you said that would help get a psion out of a grapple are psychic warrior only, nice that. Caster types have a ton more options that work to various degrees of succes (dim door being the best here for everyone) but then wizards have way more choices for spells. Eh, but that isnt something that can be used to bash the psion so obviously it is unimportant.


As for the sacred cows. Not being able to cast in armor isnt really a balancing point, it is merely a sacred cow that isnt necissarily. It doesnt even fit thematically in my eyes. Besides, they can wear armor and use shields with 0% spell failure with a little effort so ::shrugs:: either way.

There are several issues going on in this thread and various people keep jumping around randomly. I would suggest again to read through the threads I posted earlier. Sure, it'll take some time, but if anyone cares enough to actually wonder about balancing then it'll be a good thing to read. Not everything can be put down to a couple of paragraphs after all.


Eh, this is a longer post than I wanted, but I wanted to get that initial laugh out. Craziness has replaced everything else in this topic, as is the norm. Some people have had issues in their games, I have never seen any big issues ever. In fact, I have so many more issues with the magic system as written (mostly from being too underpowerd in some areas and too horribly overpowered in others) that anyone saying that they want psions to be as balanced as magic is in the core sounds like insanity. Trying to take one system that has only a few fairly minor issues and make it as 'balanced' as a system with huge, gaping holes? No thanks, I'll stick with psionics, make a few minor changes for campaign reasons, and then overhaul the magic system. It is easier that way and more balanced in the long run.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Lol!!

Ok, I can pretty much sum up an answer to most of your post right here. I have already gone over it repeatidly, but hey, whatever

Psions are less hindered by some things and more hindered by others. I already said they had slightly different issues with grappling than other casters.

I don't think slightly means what you think it means....

Still though, for every advantage that you can come up with one direction there is a disadvantage in another.

You've had quite a while to come up with relevant disadvantages (specifically wrt vulnerabilities) and the best you can do so far is range. That's worth discussing, but I think it establishes the fact that conventional spell users are more vulnerable to various tactics that might hinder or prevent spellcasting than psions are. (On this, my own take (as a player) is that the difficulty of preventing psions from using their powers means that the only safe way to transport a captive psion is dead).

However, whenever the disadvantages are brought up they are swept under the rug with people saying, 'well, it isnt important'.

One would hope that people would also give reasons why stuff is less important. (For instance, a paladin's immunity to disease is not very important because disease is not a large part of most games and, for the most part, is easily cured by either low-level magic or heal checks).

Well guess what, because of that I have no problem doing it right back at the nay sayers.

Which is a problem. Because someone else appears to have missed a step in their logic, you willingly abandon rational discourse altogether. Neener neener neener. I wish you wouldn't.

Again, anything that the other casters do better is apparently irrelevant, anything that the psions do better is broken. Anyone else see a problem here?

Well, yes. First, you appear to misunderstand my purpose in posting to the thread which is to establish that, yes, it is more difficult to prevent a psion from using his powers than to prevent a conventional caster from casting. In that regard, spell ranges are a red herring.

Second, you miss the important distinction between conventional casters as a group (who do not all have long-range spells) and sorcerer/wizards (who do).

Third, I have not said that psions are broken because it is hard to prevent them from using their powers; I have simply said that that is one advantage they have over conventional casters.

In some games the longest of ranges might not matter,

Make that most games and you'll be talking. I've been playing 3.x for about five years now in a variety of different home and living campaigns and there has been precisely one time that I thought "wow, long range sure is useful." That one time was a battle interactive where we were playing out a siege--hardly your standard D&D.

but I would assume that in most games the difference between short and medium range will definately be felt.

At least at the early levels. It's not such a big deal as it used to be by the time short range reaches 60-70 feet....

With so many psionic powers falling into the personal and short range instead of longer ranges this is a pretty serious drawback. Much, much larger than even if the psion was completely immune to grapples (which he isnt by a long shot) and silence

Hmm, from the D-F section of the SRD:

Deja Vu (medium)
Disintegrate, psionic (medium)
Dispel psionics (medium)
Dominate, psionic (medium)
Ectoplasmic coccoon (medium)
mass ectoplasmic coccoon (medium)
ectoplasmic shambler (long)
ego whip (medium)
energy ball (long, but kineticist power)
energy bolt (120' line)
energy cone (60' cone)
energy missile (medium, but kineticist power)
energy push (medium)
energy wall (medium)
energy wave (120' cone)
false sensory input (long)

That seems like a pretty good selection of non-short range powers to me and that's just from d-f. Note that it includes psionic dominate, ego whip, energy bolt, energy ball, and energy missile (a kinticist power a lot of other psions spend a feat to get) as well as psionic disintegrate. That's considerably better than the medium range cleric and druid list and about as good as the medium range arcane spells.

(broken spell, if we are going to say that broken spells are ok to court around then I'll bring up gate and end the discussion right there as it beats effectively everything else out there).

What, psions are immune to gate?!? I never knew. What page is that on?

I'm not talking about what broken things a class can do in this thread. I'm talking about the things that other people can't do to psions. That psions can't cast gate is irrelevant to the topic. That they can't be shut down by silence is relevant.

Range is very important. Incredibly so.

Also, nearly all of the powers that you said that would help get a psion out of a grapple are psychic warrior only, nice that.

Psionic Freedom of movement: Psion/Wilder 4, Psi War 4
Psionic Dimension Door: Psion/Wilder 4, Psy War 4

And those are the ones I mentioned. For ones I didn't mention:

Psionic grease (Psion/wilder 1)
Time Hop (Psion/Wilder 3)
Mass Time Hop (Nomad 8)
Psionic Blast (stun the enemy to escape his clutches)
Psionic plane shift (not quite as nice as the magic version but still gets you out of a grapple--it just can't send the other guy to the elemental plane of fire)
Shadow body
Telekinetic Manuever (Psion/Wilder 4)
and others--it's not an exhaustive list.

All the psionic power using classes have plenty of ways to escape a grapple. But, seeing as they have both the premiere arcane method (dimension door) and the premiere divine method (freedom of movement) in addition to the various ad-hoc manuevers they could try in order to escape, I think it's safe to say that conventional casters have nothing on psions as far as escaping a grapple.

Caster types have a ton more options that work to various degrees of succes (dim door being the best here for everyone)

Not really. Freedom of movement is the best option, but it's only available to conventional casters if you're talking about clerics (who don't have dimension door without the travel domain). Psions actually have more options to escape grapples and more useful options (because they can manifest their freedom of movement, grease, or other improvised option after they're grappled).

but then wizards have way more choices for spells. Eh, but that isnt something that can be used to bash the psion so obviously it is unimportant.

Implied accusations of bad faith might have a little more credibility from you if you hadn't managed to miss psionic dimension door and psionic freedom of movement on the psion/wilder list. I'm not bashing the psion. I'm just pointing out that the psion does not suffer from the same liabilities as conventional spellcasters and is, in fact, significantly harder to "shut down."

As for the sacred cows. Not being able to cast in armor isnt really a balancing point, it is merely a sacred cow that isnt necissarily. It doesnt even fit thematically in my eyes. Besides, they can wear armor and use shields with 0% spell failure with a little effort so ::shrugs:: either way.

You're either talking house rules or you have a very odd definition of "a little effort." Myself, I would not call ten levels of spellsword, three feats, or essentially sacrificing two levels (by using still spell on every spell a sor/wiz casts) "a little effort." I would call it a major sacrifice. (And yes, I have tried that on a fighter/wizard... and it still wasn't a good deal).