For Nail - The Psion

[Nail]

yep, even psions, given transparency is the default condition.

Not entirely true. When I've asked for psion-counters, most turn out to be either extremely specialized (Globe of Invul.) or from other psions.

Doesn't sound like a transparent and integrated system. Sounds to me like there are some major mis-matches. (I and others have listed them above.)

But, for completeness, what logic chain do you go through to say that psionics cannot be countered useing dispel magic?

Far better to simply directly target the psion with a Greater Dispel Magic. Why try for one, when you can get them all?

I've seen counterspelling used....but not often. The last time it happened involved the BBEG wearing a ring of counterspells. That was a great trick.

Cure light wounds does not appear on the psion/psychic warrior/wilder list.
Haste does not appear..
Heal/harm..
Silent image..
Or a couple of hundred other spells

Your point?

You've missed it? Okay....

(BTW: the equivalent of many of those spells above _do_ appear on a Psion's list. And Wiz/Sor doesn't get Heal, Harm, CLW, etc.)

All the spell-casting classes have different lists, and yet:

• there are counters for Asn spells on Clr lists,
• there are counters for Drd spells on the Sor list,
• there are counters for Wiz spells on the Rgr list,
• etc.

There are precious few counters for Psion's powers on any[/i] other class list!

BTW: Hey, I could be wrong. I'd love to get a HUGE list of normal magic counters for psion powers. I'd love it. Really!

And I'd rather not hear Dispel Magic again. That's a gimme.

 

[Sithobi1]

Well, Mind Blank by itself is a very good counter, since many of the psion's powers are mind-affecting.
Let's compare a specialized undead-fighting wizard to a specialized undead-fighting cleric...obviously Turn Undead must be overpowered...right?

 

[Scion]

Our group's psion (Psi(shaper) 15) has at least 20hp more than that. Ans he uses them too, with Overchannel.

As for the rest of the encounter analysis: sure, mistakes were made. That's the way combat works. And yet the example still holds.

Besides, I've seen our psion do similar things to bad guys.

Your psion has 152 hp at level 15? now that guy has dumped some major, major resources into hp. Probably a +6 con item as he needs a +7 con mod item (39hp from hd, 20hp from feat, 90+hp from con).

If your character often has setups that work directly to his strengths and his opponents do silly things and roll poorly while the character rolls well I'd have to say that this isnt an issue with any particular class.

If your psion has that many hp and burns through them with overchannel (which, in this case, burns up hp and pp and an extraordinary rate) then he is in major trouble.

Psions in games I have seen who are frugal with their pp run out pretty quickly, let alone someone who is spending them even faster along with burning up hp.

I dont know what kind of game you are in, but it sounds pretty crazy to me. 150+hp caster classes at level 15, infinite pp, unlimited rest time, unbounded prep time, no dispels, npcs have few defenses and no tactics.. I'd have to say it isnt the psion that is the problem given what I have heard so far ;/

 

[Nail]

Yoowza! I may have to bow out just 'cause Scion can type faster! Curse my skipping typing class during summer school, all those years ago!!

Divine specialist summoner. I have asked before what you have done to make this guy a specialist .....

Clr 15
Domain: Summoning
Feat: Augment Summoning
Feat: Domain Spontaneity (Summoning)
Feat: Divine Summoner (house rule, spend turn attempts to decrease casting time)
PrC: Shining Summoner (house rule, some "flavor" powers, like all summoned creatures shine like Light spell, extra turning feat, etc)

I've spent more feats (and even taken a PrC!) than the Psion has. His A-C are still better. (Sigh)

BTW, I'm not saying SM sucks. It doesn't. It's great spell. My SMs kick righteous butt, compared to all the rest of the members of the party (who are no slouches themselves). .....but compared to the Psion(shaper)? I'm small-time.

My SMs wear down the competition. His A-C take them out in 1 round.

 

[Scion]

Not entirely true. When I've asked for psion-counters, most turn out to be either extremely specialized (Globe of Invul.) or from other psions.

Doesn't sound like a transparent and integrated system. Sounds to me like there are some major mis-matches.

You are selectively reading my posts then

Also, the systems are integrated easily and fit seemlessly. I have never seen any issue aside from asthetics (which are unimportant).

Far better to simply directly target the psion with a Greater Dispel Magic. Why try for one, when you can get them all?

Which is in line with what I said before, but completely ignores my question.

I agree that targeting the psion to get rid of buffs is generally a good option, as it is vs just about every character ever, but some instantaneous spells/powers you wont get that option.

Now, if you would be so kind as to answer the question?

You've missed it? Okay....

(BTW: the equivalent of many of those spells above _do_ appear on a Psion's list. And Wiz/Sor doesn't get Heal, Harm, CLW, etc.)

Yes, I missed them, they dont appear in my psionics handbook nor in the srd.

What magical source are you drawing from? Maybe if I had this imaginary version I could understand where you are coming from.

Until then though, I am going to stick with what I actually have.

Also, just because something appears on the wiz list but not on the clr list or the other way around matters as much as if something is on the wiz list but not on the psi and the other way around and something on the clr list but not on the psion and the other way around. Each has something the others cant do. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses.

If you point to one thing that the psions can do that the others cant then I'll point to something they can do that the psion cant. Since there are at least 3x as many spells as their are powers (many unique to magic) I'll have stuff left over to point out on magics side after you run out of things psions have.

Now, I dont mean the imaginary material comment above to be snippy, but if you are going to say that something has an equivalent when it does not then I will have to assume you are making something up. Feel free to list the equivalent to each thing I put above, maybe I have missed them.

(for the record: body adjustment is not the equivalent to any of the cures, the first is personal only, much less efficient, and cannot be used offensively. the only thing they do similarly is that they heal damage, but they are no where near equivalent.)

All the spell-casting classes have different lists, and yet:

• there are counters for Asn spells on Clr lists,
• there are counters for Drd spells on the Sor list,
• there are counters for Wiz spells on the Rgr list,
• etc.

There are precious few counters for Psion's powers on any[/i] other class list!

I have to admit, I have zero idea what you are talking about here. Do you mean things like deathward, delay poison, and.. I dont know.. I havent a clue. This seems to be completely random so I am guessing it is just smoke and mirrors designed to confuse the issue.

Please, I'd love to know 'what' you are trying to say here.

BTW: Hey, I could be wrong. I'd love to get a HUGE list of normal magic counters for psion powers. I'd love it. Really!

And I'd rather not hear Dispel Magic again. That's a gimme.

So, the one that is the universal counter is a gimme. All right.

How about mind blank? Spell turning? Offensively enervation is such a massive hit it is incredible (yes, much more so to psions than other caster types).

Those have all already been given in this thread and there are others.

But, I still have no idea what you mean by 'counters', the only thing I can think you mean are the spells like deathward or maybe haste vs slow. But those dont make any sense for this topic.

 

[Nail]

I dont know what kind of game you are in, but it sounds pretty crazy to me. 150+hp caster classes at level 15, infinite pp, unlimited rest time, unbounded prep time, no dispels, npcs have few defenses and no tactics.. I'd have to say it isnt the psion that is the problem given what I have heard so far ;/

The psion has below DMG average wealth. He has rolled stats, but they're in the 32 pt buy range. He's a dwarf, so his Con is high. He knows the rules well, and we all trust that he's not sheating in some way.

Last week we finished a large two part running battle with an army of giants, ettins, athaches, etc. I DMed. Several PCs (APL 15) nearly died. The Psion ended the night with only 1/3 of his PP left, and about 2/3 of his hp left.

The psion also ended the night with the most confirmed kills.

As for rest time: They can teleport. 'Nuff said.

 

[Nail]

You are selectively reading my posts then .

I'm certainly targeting my responses. Surgical strike!!

 

[Scion]

Yoowza! I may have to bow out just 'cause Scion can type faster! Curse my skipping typing class during summer school, all those years ago!!

Normally I wouldnt even be here during the week, but I am waiting for my experiment to stop running to I can compile some more data..mmm.. wave of the future.. spread sheets.. soo tired... ;/

Clr 15
Domain: Summoning where is this from? what does it do?
Feat: Augment Summoning +4 str/+4 con, effectively a menu C choice always on for all summonings I guess so we can do this weird comparison of yours
Feat: Domain Spontaneity (Summoning) where is this from? what does it do? I am guessing it makes all of your domain slots useable for any domain spells spontaneously, this really isnt helping the summon part of the build much at all, it helps keep the character more versitile in other areas rather than make summoning stronger
Feat: Divine Summoner (house rule, spend turn attempts to decrease casting time) so, 1 turn attempt to go to full round, 2 to standard action, that sort of thing? since it is a houserule you can post the whole feat
PrC: Shining Summoner (house rule, some "flavor" powers, like all summoned creatures shine like Light spell, extra turning feat, etc) Does it actually increase the power of summons at all? light is not an improvement, generally I would consider it the opposite. Extra turning isnt a direct improvement and since I dont know anything about the other feat I have no idea what it will help with

I added some stuff in above, can you answer the questions?

Overall it looks like you have spent 1 feat to increase the power of the summons and one more feat to give up other resources to do cast them faster (how much and how fast I have no idea).

You have spent 1 domain to make summons better but I dont know what it does to help them (my guess would be + caster level, making them last longer and be tougher to dispel all of the time)

There is also a prc which may or may not improve the summons at all. If it is anything like the summoner prc from a different book I have seen (relics and rituals maybe?) then it is possible it will have double duration for summons, some extra buffs, metamagic applied for free, or some other beanies.


It just isnt enough to go on to tell anything.

Plus, in the end, it could come down to trying to force something that your character is very weak in to begin with into something viable.

Given by what you have said I would have to say you have made it viable even with all of the detriments you have to put up with just by being a cleric summoner. Good job

Now, lets say that your summons are always worse than the constructs just for a baseline. Your character still has better party buffs, better healing, better undead turning ability, more spells to cast per day, the whole cleric spell list, better armor profs, better hd, better BAB, and likely a few other things as well.

All in all, your character has a lot of betters tossed in, which should make him a little worse in other areas. You put in your licks and made your guy viable for what he wanted to do. But the guy who is far behind in all of those areas has put in his licks and is better at it overall (although, given that you might be able to make your guys as a standard action and buff them up, and who knows what else all at the same time I would find the initial assumption of the ac always being better hard to swallow) seems as it should be.


Even given any power differences I would have to say that standard action summon monster beats 1 round action Ac out of the water, down the beach and all the way to the city.

 

[Scion]

The psion has below DMG average wealth. He has rolled stats, but they're in the 32 pt buy range. He's a dwarf, so his Con is high. He knows the rules well, and we all trust that he's not sheating in some way.

Last week we finished a large two part running battle with an army of giants, ettins, athaches, etc. I DMed. Several PCs (APL 15) nearly died. The Psion ended the night with only 1/3 of his PP left, and about 2/3 of his hp left.

The psion also ended the night with the most confirmed kills.

As for rest time: They can teleport. 'Nuff said.

I have no idea what he is doing then. I wouldnt accuse the guy of cheating but something is seriously up and I bet there are a lot of little factors here and there that add up to this situation. I 'highly' doubt it has anything to do with any particular class but merely how the character is played and a thousand other little variable with the rest of the group and the campaign in general.

For all we know he might just roll lucky all of the time while playing (even a little above average with the rest of the party a little below average will show as a major discontinuity over time.. and if the party member has a bad night every now and then it might be washed under the rug and ignored while the times he came out ahead put on the spotlight).

As for teleport, I have played and dm'd in high level campaigns, just because you can sometimes get away and try to sleep does 'not' make it a good option for dozens of various reasons.

I'd still love to know how that guy has over 152hp though, especially while still having a good int (for extra pp) and only having a 32 point buy. Even an 20 con, 18 int would only barely cut it, and that leaves straight 8's everywhere else.

Edit: thinking it over a little more we are talking about a guy going up against very high hp critters (giants tend to be that way) with lots of close up offense but genereally weak on the distance offense and medium to low on defense (depending on the giant type)

At maximum blasts the psion will get less than 10 shots a day (195 base, 52 stat assuming 24 int, no racial = 247, 18 points per blast with overchannel and taking 5d8 damage this will give him 13 blasts with no other powers.. so no defenses at all) It would likely take 2 blasts to kill any one giant and they are pretty big so even catching 3 in an area effect would be unlikely.. but we'll say 3 and no risk of hurting allies for whatever reason. This means a maximum killed number of giants of 39 and killing himself nearly twice over (avg 292.5 damage)

So, even under optimal conditions, using everything he has, not being attacked back and being incredibly lucky I dont see how the above would've been terribly possible without some incredible rolls and party tactics. Useing constructs would've been less effective damage wise but would've saved the party from being hit as much, tradeoffs.

Overall, it just sounds to me like he is a good tactical player, knows how to make enemies play to his strengths, has good party members helping him out, and was very lucky.

 

[Shadowdweller]

There is no need for you to be rude about it. Apparently you didnt know how the raw works, now you do.

Heh. It's certainly not ME making absurd and baseless assumptions about what another person thinks and understands, sir:

Did you not read what they said? After that, I went on to explain a little more about what I was trying to say and basically just a little blurb about what I do.

Since I've yet to see any sign that you understand what *I* wrote, allow me to give you a little hint: Internal Inconsistency. It's not negated or in any way trumped by anything you've said.

There. Enough of this tangent.