For Nail - The Psion

[Scion]

I have seen no such hindrance.

Then you should read some of the stuff I posted earlier

In each case, when we bring up areas where side-to-side comparisons with other arcane casters, the pro-psions do there best to say: "But that's no big deal". The over-use of the tactic speaks volumes.

Of course, this is usually once the anti-psi say things like, 'I dont care if the psions are horrible in this large list of areas where other caster types beat them down, only the parts where psions might actually be better matter!'

Why is it that the ways they are behind dont matter but the ways they are ahead are so important that everything is broken? Especially when the ways they are ahead are against things that the others suck at to begin with.

If game balance were a scale, the psion side would be touching bottom, while Sor/Wiz would be up there hanging.

Rhetoric, I could just as easily say the opposite and it would mean just as much.

 

[KarinsDad]

Another wrinkle in the psion vs. other casters debate.

Psions cannot counterspell. There are no rules for this. They can counter a few spells/powers if the description of the power allows for it, but that is the limit of their ability in this regard.

This includes Dispel Psionics.

If a psion wants to disrupt a caster/psion, he has to do damage or affect the target's mind. Since virtually all of these powers have saves / spell resistance, normal spell casters have the ability to either counterspell normally, or counterspell with Dispel Magic. Psions do not have this option (and let me tell you, the fact that the psions in our group last Sunday could not counterspell the BBEG Mindflayer from Dimension Dooring allowed him to easily escape).

 

[Galfridus]

Good questions, I'll answer as best I can. Probably some of this is due to my quick summary of the situation, we'll see.

Why did the mage use such a sucky spell? If it was 3 on 1 he could easily have readied his action to disrupt anything that the psion tried to manifest first of all, or he could've used, say, a simple enervation (possibly empowered/maximized/quickend with a rod) practically would've ended the encounter right there, or even disentegrate (nonelemental damage, much higher damage on a failed save and about the same damage on a successful one, possible crit chance). He also had access to 8th level spells so maybe he could've even mazed the psion again after he was blasted by the other two people he was with.

Enervation could have worked well, true, although it would not have stopped Astral Constructs from appearing (maybe they would be slightly smaller), and it would have taken a good roll to get rid of Temporal Acceleration.

The other high-end spells which the wizard had available were: Otto's Irresistable Dance (not close enough); Power Word Blind (probably should have used this); Mage's Sword; Limited Wish. He went for damage because he figured with the cleric and rogue also attacking, they would drop him fast.

In retrospect, taking Disintegrate might have been good; with the spells at hand, I think Power Word Blind would have been the best option. He was going to use that next after the psion's hit point total was lower; getting greedy, I guess.

The rogue did nothing at all? Now, I havent played many high level rogues, but I assume they can do more than fire a few arrows, especially given that the people apparently had at least a round to prepare. Still though, +3 bow, +1 point blank shot, +6 dex, +12 BAB, +1 weapon focus, +1 haste (this is all pretty conservative as I dont know what buffs the enemies had put up, but these are basic) = +24. Even vs ac 30 two hits are pretty likely, and if he had gone invis while the people were mazed then the first one would be sneak attack also (for +8d6 damage) this would have also possibly ended the fight right there.

The rogue was doing some stuff while the psion was mazed (helping deal with the other PC, who ran off). There was no buffs, but the numbers are about right. I did not roll great, which is why there was only one hit per round (with sneak attack damage). This psion has a high Con and the feat that grants extra HP, so has around 132 HP, plus a Contingency Body Adjustment. Still, two more hits would have probably done it.

He had a potion of greater invis, and with no way to know when the psion was coming out, drinking it before he emerged would be a waste. If the psion had stayed in one more round, he would have had a ready action to drink it, but the psion got out a bit too fast.

In retrospect, the rogue could have been slightly more effective, but not a whole lot moreso.

The cleric tried a greater dispel (assuming).

Yes.

Now, did he get the psion in the radius as well? if so then that could be by by to the inertial armor. Personally if I was the cleric I probably would've popped up an antimagic field and waded up to the psion. Heavy armor vs no armor, Medium BAB vs Low BAB, d8hd vs d4hd, along with immunity to just about anything the psion could do.

This is a failing on my part -- I didn't think of setting the area of the Dispel just right and should have. So yes, one mistake on my part here. The cleric did not have Antimagic Field ready, which was a deliberate choice on my part (it was used against the psion recently and I didn't want to overload that tactic).

But then, I dont get why the cleric didnt do something 'before' the psion got to go anyway. The psion had just been hit by a 16d6 lightning bolt, very unlikely to make his save (but possible) probably has energy resistance 10+ (why not, everyone does at these levels, though not usually to lightning, still, benefit of the doubt). So, half damage - 10 = 18 damage. For some reason this wasnt empowered (npc gear is low so that is likely the reason) so this isnt much damage if the save was successful and the psion had some defense up. If the save was failed and the psion had no defenses then 56 damage means the psion would need at least a 14 con to survive (not hard, in fact I would expect it to be at least 16 from items).

I skipped the part where the cleric dropped a Dimensional Lock so the psion couldn't teleport away (which the PCs tend to do a lot). Sorry for omitting that detail. By the time he got another action, he had a construct in his face and a dead wizard next to him.

As above, the psion has 132 HP. He failed his save and took 50ish damage from the bolt.

Next we have a hit from the rogue, nonsneak attack (is this a real rogue?). We'll say this does 12 damage or so (d8 +3 enhancement +1 point blank +3 str +d6 fire +poison?). Now we are up to 30 damage total even if things are going really well for the psion. If he had been half dead from the ealier part of the fight then he is already dead now.

The rogue actually got a sneak attack in the first attack, doing 30ish points as I recall.

So, I am not sure what this example is trying to show. One character basically has nothing thrown against him and takes down 3 guys who mostly just stand there and take it without doing anything.

The way I see it, the psion killed one character per action for three rounds. He had Constructs (instantly summoned via Temporal Acceleration) for low AC characters, Maximized area effect Fortitude save spells to deal with rogues, and a Construct with Blindsight to deal with invisibility.

Yes, the NPCs were weaker because their gear was at NPC levels -- but three of them should have a much better shot vs one character.

The fight was a relatively spontaneous one, so there were minimal buff spells in place (only 1 hour per level ones). I don't think most buff spells would have made a difference -- what stops a Construct from hitting?

I do agree that the psion's tactics were spot-on, and I don't want to minimize that, but I do feel that his killing capacity was higher than other characters of equivalent level. Also, note that his equipment played little to no role in this fight.

EDIT: I think the ideal tactic would be: Wizard does Power Word, Blind; Cleric does Dimensional Anchor; Rogue full attacks, all sneak attacks. This puts the psion on the defensive -- he might even try to teleport away, not knowing of the Dimensional Anchor, and blow a key action.

 

[Nail]

Psions cannot counterspell.

Nor can they be counterspelled. Sounds like a net benefit to me!

 

[Nail]

Sorting through the post back log. Ufta. I'll say one thing for you, Scion, you sure can type!

Also, if you dont have any problems with wizards/sorcs/clerics then you must have certain ways of dealing with them.

Yup.

Check it out: they all use the same magic system. For example: They can counterspell each other, they have spells specifically designed to work against another spell caster.

There are no such checks and balances for psions. Dismiss Ectoplasm for example, does NOT appear on any Wiz/Sor/Clr/Drd class list.

THe psionic system doesn't fit with the rest of the magic system. As I listed far above, this is one of the main problems. (And there are others.)

The same sort of tactics will work, and generally work better, against the psion.

Other than Dispel Magic, the same tactics do NOT work.

 

[Scion]

Enervation is one of those big weaknesses I was talking about that people dont usually consider. Fairly easy for the caster types to do but the psion has very limited defenses and no real counterpart.

For a 4th level spell an auto d4 negative levels hit the psion right where he lives, his pp total. Each negative level kills enough pp to manifest his highest level power, which for the example above means about a 50/50 chance of simply ending the encounter (the psion was already very low on pp) and with a metamagic rod of empower or maximize (maximize being the obvious favorite here, although the 25% chance of 6 negative levels is definately interesting) would have meant the psion was doomed.

With the power word: Blind that would've meant the end for the psion as well. The construct would have only gotten a single attack rather than a full attack (I am still fuzzy on the range everyone was at, if the wizard had been farther away and outside of the range of the power this encounter would've gone very differently as well).

132 hp for a 16th level psion is definately a good amount. 41.5 on average from levels means 90.5 from other things. Assuming psionic body and all psionic feats (a bonus with a penalty built in) and human means 20 hp from that, so 70.5 from con, which means about a 20 con. Sounds like this guy is pretty rough and tumble, lots of resources put into getting more hp. (of course any character could have gotten improved toughness for +16 hp and not had the restriction of only being able to get psionic feats, assuming that version of toughness is available)

Even if the mage was counting on direct damage though the spell he chose is a poor one. It is kindof nice if facing a horde of weak opponents with your buddies in the middle, but if they are weak enough for this spell to matter then they probably arent a huge threat anyway and there are still other spells which would work much better (like slow for instance, not in damage dealing but with dealing with a large number of weaker foes).

With the contingency an extra 6d12 hp is pretty nice in a flash.. this guy is completely wanting a dispel cast on him, I think that really would've brought him down to 'fish bait' level right away.

All in all, it looks like the mage just choose the wrong spell for the occasion. It happens, but accidentaly trying to go up against a characters strength (in this case a bunch of resources dumped into actually having hp) doesnt make the character broken. Just like tossing a will save spell against a guy who normally has a low will save but who dumped a bunch of resources into making it his best.


As for the rogue, I am just not sure what he is doing. He mainly just stands there and tries to look pretty. More or less I just discount his entire presence in the battle (how is he getting sneak attack by the way? shouldnt be any surprise, he isnt invisible, he might even be too far away, etc) He seems a bit distracted and ineffective Maybe he is primarily skill based instead of combat based, which does happen.


Mainly it just sounds like the npcs had no effective gear, had no defenses, had the wrong spells prepared to be effectively offensive, but were great at keeping the psion there. Poor rolling for the bad guys and good rolling for the good guys tipped the balance in favor of the psion who could've been killed by slightly different rolling several different times in the encounter or by slightly different spellcasting by the opponents.

Overall, given that the psion still nearly died even with all of this in his favor I dont think it shows anything either way. A fighter type character would've performed exactly the same given the same conditions, most character types who put in for a good amount of hp would have in fact.


Still though, I am confused by how the construct managed to do what he did. I went through the numbers above and unless the psion was rolling 'really' well for his construct I still dont see it doing what it apparently did. (well, rolling very well, being able to get full attacks each round somehow, getting crits, enemies having low con scores and no items to help with it, etc) It is apparent that these 3 guys would've been destroyed by any competant fighter type.

 

[Scion]

Check it out: they all use the same magic system.

yep, even psions, given transparency is the default condition.

Personally, I dont care about counterspelling either way. I have never seen it used. But, for completeness, what logic chain do you go through to say that psionics cannot be countered useing dispel magic?

There are no such checks and balances for psions. Dismiss Ectoplasm for example, does NOT appear on any Wiz/Sor/Clr/Drd class list.

Cure light wounds does not appear on the psion/psychic warrior/wilder list.
Haste does not appear..
Heal/harm..
Silent image..
Or a couple of hundred other spells

Your point?

There are checks and balances all over, you have even shown some yourself before. Overstating to that degree wont help

THe psionic system doesn't fit with the rest of the magic system.

Since it 'is' a magic system stylistically and since it has been designed to fit and since I have seen no problems in any games I have been in nor heard any real problems other than asthetics (which are too campaign dependent to be important, the color green might not fit into a given campaign after all) I'd have to say that isnt true.

It fits in fine, it isnt even majorly different than the other versions of magic. It is just as different from arcane as arcane and divine are different sure, but that is a good thing, that way they arent all exactly the same.

Other than Dispel Magic, the same tactics do NOT work.

Sure they do, some work slightly better, some slightly worse. There are a couple of broken ones for each system which still need to be worked out (3.75? 4.0? 10.9?) but that is only a matter of time and work.

 

[Nail]

Back to Astral Contsruct

...we are comparing something that is designed to do one thing to another which only 'can' do that one thing but also has lots of other uses.

So, you are saying: "A-C does only combat, while SM does combat plus extras. Therefore they are balanced." Sounds to me like we can (are are) comparing them!

The direct response to your assertion is: "But A-C does much better in combat, and can do many of the out-of-combat roles as well." This has been done time and again above. Again, as a divine specialist summoner in the same party as a psion(shaper), I've had ample opportunities to compare head-to-head.

Again: a specialist in summoning vs a specialist in Astral Constructs. The comparison is as close as we're liable to get.

....it doesnt matter how good or bad summon monster is compared to astral construct, that is the point, they do different things.

I disagree. They do much the same thing. People in our group often get confused by both of us summoning/constructing.

"Nail, how come his <the A-C> are so much better than yours <summoned monsters>?"

(Yep, the others leap on his joke set-up super-quick.)

 

[Nail]

132 hp for a 16th level psion is definately a good amount.

Our group's psion (Psi(shaper) 15) has at least 20hp more than that. Ans he uses them too, with Overchannel.[/QUOTE]

As for the rest of the encounter analysis: sure, mistakes were made. That's the way combat works. And yet the example still holds.

Besides, I've seen our psion do similar things to bad guys.

 

[Scion]

So, you are saying: "A-C does only combat, while SM does combat plus extras. Therefore they are balanced." Sounds to me like we can (are are) comparing them!

So I guess you didnt actually read what I had to say? Unfortunate.

Still though, here goes another try. One is a specialist ability that works only in a single set of situations vs another that is general and works in a broad range of situations.

If you compare them and say that the ac is better in combat what have you proven as far as balance goes? Zero.

So, why bother even trying? why not just answer the question I posed rather than introducing one that will leave the important question still hanging while not actually giving any useful data?

By all means, compare the two to your hearts content, but in the end after you have shown whatever it is you are trying to then you still cannot say whether ac is balanced or not.

The direct response to your assertion is: "But A-C does much better in combat, and can do many of the out-of-combat roles as well." This has been done time and again above. Again, as a divine specialist summoner in the same party as a psion(shaper), I've had ample opportunities to compare head-to-head.

Divine specialist summoner. I have asked before what you have done to make this guy a specialist and shown how he is already behind the curve before even starting to try.

The divine guy does not have much to choose from to specialize. There is the +4/+4 feat but it has a prereq which does not help summoning, there are no other feats that I know of off hand to help him. He might have a couple of domains to help his summonings, but what these are and what they might do I dont know.

So, as far as I can tell, your 'specialized divine summoner' has one feat to help him and at the same time cuts his own summoning list down by half or more. woo. Sounds like he seriously needs more options to be considered a real specialist.

If the man with two legs can walk faster than the man with one leg you dont cut off one of the first guys legs to make them even.

Again: a specialist in summoning vs a specialist in Astral Constructs. The comparison is as close as we're liable to get.

Of course, it is a horrible comparison in a number of different ways that I have already said.

If you want to, go right ahead, but it wont prove anything useful.

I disagree. They do much the same thing. People in our group often get confused by both of us summoning/constructing.

"Nail, how come his <the A-C> are so much better than yours <summoned monsters>?"

I guess you should ask them, 'at doing what?' because there are areas where the ac's are better and areas where the summoning is better.

If you pick only a narrow band then sure, one of them will likely be better. But then if you pick a different band then it switches. At that point who is better?

They both make extra critters on the field which can do things, in that they are the same. However, their purposes and roles are different.

Just like if you have 2 characters on the field, say a rogue and a fighter, sometimes they will do the same thing, but they have talents in completely different areas and their uses are very different. Directly comparing them in a single situation will show that one is better than the other, but does that mean that overall one is better than the other? They have different jobs, they have different skills, they go about things in different ways.

Like I have said though, go ahead and compare, but when you are done what will you have proven?

Even if you show that constructs are better in every way, every circumstance, 100% of the time completely superior it still wont mean that constructs are overpowered, it could simply mean that summons are underpowered, or that they are still roughly equal but the constructs are ahead but not necissarily by enough to need to be changed, or it could even mean that constructs are horrendously overpowered. But you cannot get a true answer out of it, only a glance at a guage vs an unknown.