For Nail - The Psion

[helium3]

Interesting.

My 8th level psion has had Astral Construct since 3rd level and I have used it a total of 3 times in 5.5 levels:

1) Once to help me climb up a building by carrying me while flying.
2) Once to have an additional flanker against / target for the bad guys.
3) Once to trip a BBEG.

It is just not that useful of a power due to the high chance of your character getting attacked, just in order to disrupt it while manifesting it. It is more potent than summoning, but summoning is not that useful either (unless you have a specific spell you need cast and the creature you are summoning it can cast it).

However, we are planning on ambushing the current BBEG Mind Flayer this coming Sunday and I will be using it then as part of the ambush, hence, a fourth time.

I wonder if there is anyone out there playing a psion that uses Astral Contruct all of the time.

Yeah. Our party's shaper used astral constructs all the time and to great effect. Then we realized that summoning spells (and astral construct) have a full round casting time. I don't think he's used them since.

 

[Scion]

You keep trying this. Rephrasing or re-directing the question, that is. It does little more than obscure the thread's issue.

Just tossing your own tactics back at you.

Also, if you dont have any problems with wizards/sorcs/clerics then you must have certain ways of dealing with them. So, if they are just another primary caster with the same weaknesses (which they are generally, some are shifted around but they are just another primary caster with a host of vulnerabilities) then asking what you do to clerics (argueably one of the best full casters out there) doesnt seem too bad. The same sort of tactics will work, and generally work better, against the psion.

So, it is a question who's answer will help answer your own question.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Psions have the same weaknesses as other primary casters!?!??! You've got to be joking. Let's see, the three best methods for shutting down sorcerers, wizards, warmages, and all other primary casters are, in order:

1. grapple
2. ready an action to disrupt the spell
3. silence

Of those three, silence doesn't work at all against psions and grappling doesn't work as well at low levels and doesn't work at all at high levels (where concentration checks are high enough to auto-succeed).

Readying an action to disrupt a power works almost as well as disrupting a spell (though, since powers don't require components, a hidden psion is much harder to disrupt and the invulnerability to silence means that readying a silence spell to disrupt a power (one of the best tactics against spellcasters) doesn't work at all).

So, by my count, psions are, at the most conservative estimate, twice as hard to shut down as other casters.

So, if they are just another primary caster with the same weaknesses (which they are generally, some are shifted around but they are just another primary caster with a host of vulnerabilities) then asking what you do to clerics (argueably one of the best full casters out there) doesnt seem too bad. The same sort of tactics will work, and generally work better, against the psion.

So, it is a question who's answer will help answer your own question.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Language is almost never a problem. The various templates dont seem to mention any language that they must speak, so the default of understanding common comes into play.

If your DM rules that way, they are being illogical (Yeah, I know. D&D, logic, bad). Considering that the Celestial/Fiendish templates imply BY VERY DEFINITION that said creatures come from good/evil-aligned planes. And since most of them have a very low intelligence, that means no bonus languages. Which would mean not able to communicate on their plane of origin.

So, for the cost of 2 languages (4, 3, or 2 skill points depending) you are definately covered.

One of the wonderful things 3.5 did NOT do away with was the difference between Abyssal and Infernal. Which means 3 languages (for, SORRY, 2, 4, or 6 skill points depending). Ignoring that a good many of the creatures on the list still only speak the elemental tongues.

Actually, the Protection From Evil point is being exaggerated a little as well.

PS. The exotic language issue is pretty minor as well. A Tongues or Telepathy spell, or one or two skill points will get you an exotic language. If your character wants to become a summoner, these are not major roadblocks.

You will note that I never made the claim that these were insurmountable problems. But if you try to claim that they are NON-issues, you are very simply delusional.

(PS: Gotta love the constant use of such unchallengable subjectivities as "minor issue")

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If your DM rules that way, they are being illogical (Yeah, I know. D&D, logic, bad). Considering that the Celestial/Fiendish templates imply BY VERY DEFINITION that said creatures come from good/evil-aligned planes.

And most understand, even if they do not speak, Common - just like the majority of extraplanar D&D creatures.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If your DM rules that way, they are being illogical (Yeah, I know. D&D, logic, bad).

Hmm? They're being incredibly logical.

1. The creature has an Int of 3 or greater.

Therefore they understand at least one language.

2. The creature's description does not mention any language.

Therefore, the language they understand is Common.

The logic is impeccable.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Psions have the same weaknesses as other primary casters?

Note that even in the part you quoted I said that some shifted around a bit. Each primary caster has their own strengths and weaknesses but there is quite a bit of overlap.

Lets look at your list though.

1. grapple
2. ready an action to disrupt the spell
3. silence

1 still works, just not as well. Of course, if the spell doesnt have a somatic component then they are in the same boat as the psion anyway. Still, psions are better generally, though still in trouble. Not too bad.

2 still works against the psion. You know that they are manifesting just like you know someone is casting a spell.

3 is a broken spell no matter how you look at it. It negates entire skills, kills spellcasting, and is incredibly easy to use in horribly game breaking ways. Should we point out other broken spells to show how overpowered casters are? The psions have a definate advantage here, but mainly only because this spell still hasnt been fixed like darkness was.

So, by my count, psions are, at the most conservative estimate, twice as hard to shut down as other casters.

Time to check out a few other options then. There are lots out there, just look around.

Besides, of the three you listed only one doesnt work, and it is an incredibly broken spell to begin with. I guess that means that even normal casters are hard to shut down.

 

[Scion]

If your DM rules that way, they are being illogical

I think the others covered this pretty well

Likely I didnt cover it well enough when I said it last, sorry about that, but going strictly by the raw they understand common. Personally, I dont have any problem with that. If the dm wishes to change it that is his perogative, but then we are outside of the raw and it will likely cause other problems. (of course, I treat them as understanding common and the language of their plane whenever I run it, so ::shrugs:

 

[Al'Kelhar]

I've been following this and many previous threads for some time. I'm currently reading the XPH and comparing the psion, psionic feats, and psionic powers particularly against arcane spellcasters, spellcasting feats and spells. I'll attach the analysis when it's done. But let's just say that, in my view, the game designers have endeavoured to shoe-horn a particularly flexible magic-using scheme into a game whose balance is contingent upon a Vancian magic-using scheme, with disasterous results for game balance. On my current analysis, I concur with Thanee's overarching thesis that pisonic spellcasting is unbalanced against SRD "fire-and-forget" spellcasting. Putting to one side all of the arguments about psionic classes, feats and power, a "spell point" system such as the psionic power point pool, which grants an additional degree of freedom over the SRD spellcasting system, needs to be balanced by other game mechanics to make the additional flexibility come at a cost. To my mind, there are no game mechanics in the XPH which adjust for this additional flexibility. Indeed, the whole scheme of the XPH is to grant additional flexibility to psionicists. At this stage, I also concur with Thanee's recommendations regarding toning down the psion and psionic powers.

To my mind, the XPH is nothing more than the game designers ramping up the power levels in D&D v.3.5 - as they are doing in other supplements to the core rules.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Note that even in the part you quoted I said that some shifted around a bit. Each primary caster has their own strengths and weaknesses but there is quite a bit of overlap.

Lets look at your list though.

1 still works, just not as well. Of course, if the spell doesnt have a somatic component then they are in the same boat as the psion anyway. Still, psions are better generally, though still in trouble. Not too bad.

So, what you're saying is that, unless conventional spellcasters have spells without somatic components (of which there is a rather limited list), they're utterly hosed. Psions, on the other hand, are merely inconvenienced by grappling and not even that at high levels. That sounds pretty much like what I said. Psions are somewhat vulnerable to grappling, but not nearly as vulnerable as conventional casters.

Stick a 10th level wizard in an evard's spell and he's pretty much hosed unless he's got a dimension door or teleport prepped. Stick a 10th level psion in the evard's and he can still blow stuff up or do whatever else he wants with an only moderately difficult concentration check. Pin a wizard or sorcerer and only stilled and silent spells with no material components (requires preparing a spell using three feats) are available. Pin a psion and he's not any more inconvenienced than he used to be.

2 still works against the psion. You know that they are manifesting just like you know someone is casting a spell.

I'll grant that number two works nearly as well against psions as against conventional casters. Indeed, I said as much in the original post. That, and the fact that grapples inconvenience psions is why I rated psions as half as vulnerable to these three tactics as wizards (grapple 50% vulnerable, disruption 100% vulnerable, silence 0% vulnerable).

(In the corner case of an invisible psion, that is not true because an invisible psion can suppress displays with a simple concentration check and not betray his location through motion or sound like a conventional caster would, but, that's a corner case).

3 is a broken spell no matter how you look at it. It negates entire skills, kills spellcasting, and is incredibly easy to use in horribly game breaking ways. Should we point out other broken spells to show how overpowered casters are? The psions have a definate advantage here, but mainly only because this spell still hasnt been fixed like darkness was.

So, if silence is a dramatically broken spell and psions are unaffected by it, one might conclude that it is a rather significant advantage for psions.

What other spells or powers might or might not be broken is irrelevant since we are now considering how psions and conventional casters can respond to broken spells, not how many of them they get. If conventional casters were less vulnerable than psions to various ovepowered spells and powers, that would be a mark in their favor. However, (other than, arguably, magic missile) I can't think of any spells that conventional casters can defend against more easily than psions can.

(All this, assuming, for the sake of the argument that silence is broken--I'll leave to one side whether the judgement of someone who prefers 3.5 darkness can be trusted to give good estimates of what constitutes "broken").

Time to check out a few other options then. There are lots out there, just look around.

Really? I notice you don't mention any. As it happens, I'm well aware of a number of other options (for instance, threaten a caster with a melee weapon to force him to cast defensively or entangle him to force a DC 15 concentration check, or deafen them for a 20% miscast chance) but none of them work with anywhere near the effectiveness of the first three. If you've got some hidden under your hat, you should mention them. Otherwise, people may suspect that you're just blowing smoke.

Besides, of the three you listed only one doesnt work, and it is an incredibly broken spell to begin with. I guess that means that even normal casters are hard to shut down.

If you read even what you wrote previously, you should be well aware that your evidence does not support this conclusion. Of the three most efficient ways of shutting down casters, as I said earlier and you concurred in the text of your reply, one is utterly ineffective against psions and one is significantly less effective against psions than against conventional casters. If your conclusion is that normal casters are hard to shut down (which is probably not a legitmate conclusion, based on the evidence), the next step based on the evidence that even you can see is to conclude that psions are next to impossible to shut down.