For Nail - The Psion

[Someone]

If the psion A-C is not unbalanced....how about this: the wizard and cleric can use the A-C too! How many times would you ever see the wizard not use an A-C?

Summon Monster spells are underpowered (most of the time), so I don´t think that, or a feat that allowed you to summonan extra monster with each summon, would be a bad idea.

 

[Nail]

Me too. OT, but: Seems like the "extra" monsters you can summon off a lower level list should be increased....heck: changed to be a set number. Say 2 off a list 1 lower, 4 off a list 2 lower, and 8 off a list 3 or more lower.

Back on topic: I'm beginning to be swayed to the opinion that psions aren't overpowered....just their feats and powers.

 

[Dracomeander]

Back on topic: I'm beginning to be swayed to the opinion that psions aren't overpowered....just their feats and powers.

I find it interesting that the feats and powers most often discussed as being overpowered are the ones I rarely even consider taking when I play a psion.

It's not that I'm unaware of the potential, I've just never felt the payoff was worth the risk. If the character is so powerful to make the others (players or characters) resentful, where is the fun and how likely are those others to help when my character does get into trouble.

 

[KarinsDad]

You've brought this up a number of times. Time I lay it to rest, I think.

Just like any other tactic, summoning monsters (or creating A-Cs) requires you to pick an appropriate time. Toe-to-toe with a melee brute is probably not the right time.

Fortunately, the Wiz, Clr, Drd, or Psi have the abilities to avoid the enemy, as well as companions who act as friendly meat shields. In fact, most of the time when combat begins, the spell-caster/power-manifester is NOT on the front lines....it's all about marching order, right? (If the Wiz/Psi/Sor/whatever is always in the front lines.....he's got other problems. )

(Of course there are exceptions, etc. Your PC, for example, seems built around a direct melee option.)

Playing a Clr that summons, I've only rarely been in a combat in which I could not summon a monster. DMing a Drd that summons, I was rarely able to prevent her from summoning (yep, I do know how). Same thing (different group) with the Psi(shaper).

The Point: You are _way_ "over-weighting" the 1 round casting time vulnerability. Big time. It's simply not the issue you think it is. Try it in your game!

Well, if your psion and cleric are hiding around a corner, sure they are less vulnerable.

I think your meat shield argument is not very strong though. I could easily have enemy archers and spell casters drop a lot of hurt on your psion and/or cleric from range. It's not just melee combatants that can mess those spells up.

But, if your game does not have an aggressive DM when spell casters do full round spells, I could see where you would think that those spells are more worthwhile.

As someone who's played a high level summoner, I can tell you the ACs of the summoned monsters suck, DR or no. And as for the DR....a DR of 10/magic is often completely useless; there are enough bad guys with magic weapons in the campaigns I play in.

But if your DM has bad guys with magic weapons, then you get those magic weapons if you defeat the bad guys.

If your DM has bad guys casting spells to get magic weapons, then those bad guys are using up a round of spell casting to get magic weapons which means they are not attacking directly.

I would love for my DM to have bad guys with magic weapons and other magic items a lot. More for me.

Moreover, the flexibility of the A. Construct's power lists easily dwarfs the supposed spell-casting utility of the summoned monsters. It's really no contest.

You are also forgetting the fact that Summon Monsters allow you to summon more than one slightly lower level monster. Ditto for Summon Nature's Ally. Astral Construct does not have this advantage.

In many situations, quantity count more than quality, especially when you are talking battlefield control.

 

[Scion]

hey nail

Leaving the issue of summon monster aside for the moment (it tends to have less direct power and instead a huge range of options that the ac cant hope to compete with, and the cleric guy by default is way behind even the wizard for summon monsters anyway).

Astral constructs, are they too powerful as written?

They do tend to be pretty tough in the direct combatant department, but that is their sole job. Saying simply, 'they are too good at it' is just as useful as saying, 'healing spells are too good at it' or 'swords are too good at dealing damage'.

Now, obviously you have seen them in play (I have as well for that matter, all the way up to ac 8 in fact), and have formed some opinions about them.

Again, leaving aside the summon monster guy because that clouds the issue at hand, are the astral constructs too powerful as written?

Now, this power has a few limitations which definately come into play.

1) One round casting time. Now, sometimes this isnt a major issue, other times it is. If you need some sort of damage or blocking 'right now', then the power is useless. If you are in a position where people can disrupt your power somehow then it is a big risk. If you are slowed then it takes this power mostly out of the equation (I mention this mainly because I have seen it be an issue in a few very important encounters).

While it isnt all encompassing it definately is an issue that needs to be tossed out there.

2) Shaper only power. Now, this is also a pretty serious issue. I know that some people like to dismiss this out of hand, that is a major error. A major limiting factor in picking psionic powers is that many of the spells that mages take for granted are distributed into these little disciplines. The part that matters for this discussion is that having this power means that they gave up other things. They are a specialist and so dont have access to 5 other disciplines or they spent a feat to gain it. Both of those are big issues.

Effectively this means that the psion who chooses this discipline is in a class specialized in doing such things. Specialists 'should' be stronger in their area of specialty than others who are not specialized.

3) Only one construct in a single manifestation. Sometimes having only a single bruiser simply isnt good enough.

4) Small list of abilities to choose from and very few to pick. Each construct only gets 1 pick (until 9th). A higher list ability can be turned in for 2 of the next lower list in order to gain more abilities, but then you have to pick from generally weaker abilities.

5) Dispel magic, dispel psionics, dismiss ectoplasm, dissipator weapon, suppression weapon, antimagic field, etc.. Sometimes they just dont stick around long. Spending your whole round getting one only to have it and your party hit by an area dispel kindof sucks. Albiet, this is a fairly minor issue at times, it definately comes into play.


With all of this the constructs were made pretty rough and tumble. They take a ton of pp to keep up in effectivness for the level of bad guys that you go up against and should be treated as such.

Looking back at summon monsters briefly they tend to have a lot of out of combat options or options in combat that the constructs can never get. They each have different strengths and weaknesses. Typcially the construct is deadlier in direct melee combat (but not always) but it is definately much weaker in other areas.

Again though, as for my first question, going by monsters (since the constructs are mostly useless outside of combat) of appropriate CR's and the expenditure of pp (same CR against party means roughly 20% resources spent to overcome) and time (1 round action) are the astral constructs too powerful?

I'd love to see some examples given about how they are too strong/weak. Making up actual constructs for given situations. This sort of thing has to be done a large number of times in different ways to give a good overview though, not many are willing to put in that sort of time.

So far it sounds like nail has had issues with ac's being more powerful than summon monsters, I am not sure if this means he thinks that the ac's are too powerful, summons are too weak, or some combination of the two. I have seen ac's and summon monsters used quite a bit and have had no serious issues with the ac (the biggest issue with the summon monsters is that they are very rarely good in direct melee combat, but their other tactical options are very impressive).

 

[Shadowdweller]

Typcially the construct is deadlier in direct melee combat (but not always) but it is definately much weaker in other areas.

And, since we're comparing, we might as well address the fact the the Constructs also do not require exotic languages to command, nor do they run into problems with common low level spell-effects, such as Protection from Evil/Good/What-Have-You.

And we might as well ALSO keep in mind that many of those oh so vaunted special abilities of the SM list are extremely underpowered for the level.

 

[KarinsDad]

And, since we're comparing, we might as well address the fact the the Constructs also do not require exotic languages to command, nor do they run into problems with common low level spell-effects, such as Protection from Evil/Good/What-Have-You.

Actually, the Protection From Evil point is being exaggerated a little as well.

It only stops bodily contact. It does not stop the creature from being summoned.

So, you could still use the summoned creature to do things like cast spells.

Plus, you could surround a Fighter with summoned creatures and if he attacks one of them, the Protection From Evil protection drops for that creature. If he does not attack the creature and is totally surrounded, he cannot move until he does attack a creature.

This is sometimes a good tactic for a BBEG. Have several of his henchmen attack a PC. Summon a few monsters to fill up any squares still remaining around the PC in order to trap him. Even if he has a Protection From Evil, he is still boxed in somewhat until he can take out an opponent.


There are two mundane ways to get past bodily contact protection of this spell:

1) The opponent himself attacks or tries to force the barrier against the summoned creature.

2) The caster of the Protection From Evil spell does not overcome the spell resistance of the summoned creature.


Also, Magic Circle of Protection has another downside. If you summon 3 monsters, which you can potentially do starting with Summon Monster II or Summon Nature's Ally II, they could surround the circle of protection. The character who was the target of the spell is then prevented from moving without attempting to move the barrier against one of the creatures.

Hence, getting the bodily contact protection with Magic Circle of Protection is a choice between moving and foregoing the protection if your opponent is smart enough to surround you with summoned creatures.


PS. The exotic language issue is pretty minor as well. A Tongues or Telepathy spell, or one or two skill points will get you an exotic language. If your character wants to become a summoner, these are not major roadblocks.

 

[Scion]

Language is almost never a problem. The various templates dont seem to mention any language that they must speak, so the default of understanding common comes into play.

Just looking over the list if you speak common you can talk to 90% of them, if your dm makse them go for celestial/infernal (could happen) then you are up to needing to know 3 languages that help with your tactic and help with things outside of combat on occasion.

So, for the cost of 2 languages (4, 3, or 2 skill points depending) you are definately covered.

Where is the problem?

 

[Nail]

.. I've just never felt the payoff was worth the risk. If the character is so powerful to make the others (players or characters) resentful, where is the fun and how likely are those others to help when my character does get into trouble.

I rest my case.


Nah....what's the fun in that? Might make the pro-psion people resentful?

 

[Nail]

Well, if your psion and cleric are hiding around a corner, sure they are less vulnerable.

Are you claiming that Psi or Clr or Wiz can only avoid being a target when hiding around a corner? Nonsense.

I think your meat shield argument is not very strong though.

I got that you think that. (I'm thinking your party's meat shields aren't doing their job, BTW.) Perhaps this is best solved by a question: How many times has your psion been disrupted in your game? I'm guessing the answer is "once or twice".

I could easily have enemy archers and spell casters drop a lot of hurt on your psion and/or cleric from range. It's not just melee combatants that can mess those spells up.

Sure. And Asmodeus could show up at the party too.

Trying to disrupt a caster/manifester is a legitimate tactic....but it is often not the best one or easily accomplished. The Wiz/Clr/Psi has defences too, right? Didn't you just get done saying your Psi has a high AC, etc? Moreover, caster's often have a concentration check that's high enough not to be seriously inconvenienced.

Again: how often have you seen this tactic in use? How often has your DM had creatures attack the casters in an attempt to disrupt casting? (Be sure to distiguish that from creatures attacking the casters for all the other reasons they would do so!)





...and even if you've seen this tactic used often, the central point still stands: A-C is not blanced WRT the comparable arcane equivalent. (They both have the same casting time, so it's really a moot point.) It's not even close....even against a specialist conjuring wizard or cleric.