For Nail - The Psion

[Ballard_Alvar]

To turn this into some numbers, a 20th level sorc . . .
Thanee

When I ran the numbers Sorc came out with about 3X the equivilent Power Points. To correct this lack of power points, My roomate and I developed a PRC called the Metamind, that is actually worth taking. Allthough It does Sacrifice 3 Caster Levels, It Makes up for it by Doubleing the power points. Still less powerful than the Sroc. but Ballenced with the current psion.

 

[Thanee]

When I ran the numbers Sorc came out with about 3X the equivilent Power Points.

Then you probably didn't figure in the spell level, only the caster level, or not even that.

Multiplying the sorcerer slots by equivalent number of PP is a rather pointless exercise IMHO.

It only says, which is obvious enough, anyways, that the sorcerer can cast more spells in a day, than a psion can manifest powers (unless, of course, the psion is only going for low-level effects, which isn't really a great way to spend the PP for sure ). It does neglect to value the worth of those spellcastings and manifestations. That is what I did in my comparison, and which I find much more informative. As you probably have seen, the sorcerer is still ahead there by ~20% IIRC, but not even close to +200%, and only if all spells are being cast (which almost never happens at moderate to high levels IME).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I can see your perspective for prestige classes like warmind.

Haste, however, IMO ought to be assumed by high levels. It's a pretty common spell, and is available through boots of speed, weapons of speed, and a odd effects like bracers of the quick strike and the valiant fury spell.

However, even if you looked at the PsyWar as trading one point of BAB and 4 hit points for access to psionic feats and hustle 3/day, I think it would be a very good--indeed game-changing--class.

I agree with you that it does become much more potent if you add Haste and Prestige Classes like Warmind into the equation.

However, if you do that for the PsyWarrior/Fighter, you have to add a Prestige Class to the straight Fighter as well which again, changes the balance of power.

 

[KarinsDad]

Haste, however, IMO ought to be assumed by high levels. It's a pretty common spell, and is available through boots of speed, weapons of speed, and a odd effects like bracers of the quick strike and the valiant fury spell.

I don't know about that. Haste is an arcane caster only spell, hence, it requires a Wizard willing to use up several slots a day taking it, or a Sorcerer/Bard willing to give up a known spell in order to boost Fighter types.

Not all groups have that. In our group, we do not have an arcane caster at all.


Plus, you keep mentioning Boots of Speed and Weapons of Speed.


Boots of Speed are 10 rounds per day. Hardly game breaking to get full round attacks with that. Characters with Boots of Speed could turn them on during rounds where they get full round attacks and off on rounds where they do not get full round attacks. With 3 to 4 encounters per day as the guideline, the PsyWar/Fighter does not really get that many additional attacks per day due to his Boots of Speed that the straight Fighter cannot also get by using them intelligently. If you go this route, there is no real gain due to Haste here.


Weapons of Speed are +3. If you play close to the wealth by level and no item worth more what you earned within the last level, the earliest levels at which a character could get these very potent weapons are:

+1 Weapon of Speed: 32000 GP 14th
+2 Weapon of Speed: 50000 GP 15th
+3 Weapon of Speed: 72000 GP 17th
+4 Weapon of Speed: 98000 GP 18th
+5 Weapon of Speed: 128000 GP 19th

So, if your PsyWar/Fighter is using a +1 Weapon of Speed at 14th level and the straight Fighter decides to just go with the +4 Weapon, the straight Fighter will in the long run still do similar damage. A +5 Weapon of Speed versus a same cost +5 Holy Thundering Weapon, the Weapon of Speed will probably average less damage.


And yes, there are other ways to get Haste effects, but the bottom line is that this is a specific tactic that is good, but hardly game breaking.

And any DM worth his salt should have arcane enemies occasionally cast Slow to dispel it, especially enemies that have fought the PCs before and have seen their tactics in action.

 

[Nail]

The game-breaking tactic? Psi(shaper) with Astral Constructs. Yowch, do those hurt!

I wonder, did anyone do an analysis of A-C vs SM? I suspect that once you hit 6th level SM VI, the arcane/divine version is *way* behind the A-C. I've seen it in practice...last night!

 

[Someone]

Specially when Astral construct is the power that benefits the most from Overchannel.

 

[two]

How do run-of-the-mill Astral Constructs compare vs. summoned monsters that have been augmented by the summoning feat (+4 con, +4 strength)?

Granted, it's 2 feats, but are they then close (good lord they better be, in fact, the arcane version should be, by rights, far ahead of vanilla constructs).

 

[Evilhalfling]

Celestial Brown Bear (summonV) Augmented
Large HD 6d8+36 (63hp) AC 15, 2 claws +13(1d8+10) bite +8(2d6+5) reach 5’
Improve grab(+16), scent sv 11/6/3 SR 11
SQ: DR5/magic, Resist cold 5, electric 5, acid 5 smite evil (+6dmg)

Assuming Boost construct but not Overchanneled
Astral Construct V (form of a bear)
7d10 +30 (68hp), AC 23, 2 slams +13(1d8+9), extra slam +8(1d8+4) reach 10
SQ: DR 5/magic; immune poison, parlization, critical hits, mind effects, cannot be barred by circle of protection.
SA: improved grab (+18), extra attack

So the astral constructs are way ahead on staying power - (+8AC) and pretty easily can imitate the best of SM


Polar Bear Summon Natures Ally V (augmented)
Large HD 8d8+52 (84 hp) AC 15, 2 claws +13(1d8+10) bite +8(2d6+5) reach 5’
Improve grab, scent sv 11/6/3 SR 11
SQ: DR5/magic, Resist cold 5, electric 5, acid 5

Or
Large earth Elemental (augmented)
8d8+46 (84 hp) AC 18 mv 20, 2 slams +14(2d8+9)
SQ dr 5/- earth glide, immune poison, parlization, critical hits, earth mastery

Overchannel and get
85 hp, AC 25, 2 slams +17 (1d8+11) extra slam +12(1d8+5)
DR 10/magic improved grab.

so really it is closer to summon natures ally in all respects -
better variety, (unicorn excepted) less magical abilities, no intelligence.

 

[Nail]

The Armor Class is the real balance problem. No Summoned Monsters have ACs in higher than 25 or so, IIRC. Meanwhile it's easy to get the A-Cs AC into the high 30's.

...oh heck, don't get me started. The more I look into this balance problem, the more frustrated I get.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Armor Class is the real balance problem. No Summoned Monsters have ACs in higher than 25 or so, IIRC. Meanwhile it's easy to get the A-Cs AC into the high 30's.

...oh heck, don't get me started. The more I look into this balance problem, the more frustrated I get.

Interesting.

My 8th level psion has had Astral Construct since 3rd level and I have used it a total of 3 times in 5.5 levels:

1) Once to help me climb up a building by carrying me while flying.
2) Once to have an additional flanker against / target for the bad guys.
3) Once to trip a BBEG.

It is just not that useful of a power due to the high chance of your character getting attacked, just in order to disrupt it while manifesting it. It is more potent than summoning, but summoning is not that useful either (unless you have a specific spell you need cast and the creature you are summoning it can cast it).

However, we are planning on ambushing the current BBEG Mind Flayer this coming Sunday and I will be using it then as part of the ambush, hence, a fourth time.

I wonder if there is anyone out there playing a psion that uses Astral Contruct all of the time.