For Nail - The Psion

The Psi(shaper) in my game.

Every battle.

I know I'm basing this on less-than-perfect-knowledge, KarinsDad, but I'll guess you haven't seen high level psions in long-term play yet. High level A-Cs (7, 8, 9) are very nasty....and *far* better than the equivalent SM spells.

How do I know? I play a Clr who specializes in SM. The Psi(shaper) specializes in A-Cs. Both of us are good players, with sound tactics and rules-knowledge, and we've been playing these PCs since ~7th level.

The Psion's A-C out-last and out-gun my SMs every time. Handily. (Sigh)

It's a serious balance problem.
 

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Nail said:
The Psi(shaper) in my game.

Every battle.

I know I'm basing this on less-than-perfect-knowledge, KarinsDad, but I'll guess you haven't seen high level psions in long-term play yet. High level A-Cs (7, 8, 9) are very nasty....and *far* better than the equivalent SM spells.

I agree with you that the high level A-Cs are very tough.

Nail said:
How do I know? I play a Clr who specializes in SM. The Psi(shaper) specializes in A-Cs. Both of us are good players, with sound tactics and rules-knowledge, and we've been playing these PCs since ~7th level.

The Psion's A-C out-last and out-gun my SMs every time. Handily. (Sigh)

It's a serious balance problem.

Question though. Why are your high level enemies allowing your psion and cleric to manifest/cast one round spells without dropping a boatload of hurt on you for doing so?
 

Making a quick comparison between summon monster and Astral Construct at various levels, ignoring feats like Augment Summoning and Boost construct:

- At level 1 the AC beats severely everthing present in the summon monster list; in terms of combat ability, the astral construct is way better than any of the monsters in terms of AC, to hit bonus, damage or hit points. The monsters have some versatility -web spinning, poison- but also does have the construct. At later levels, summon monster I is useful to check or spring traps; the construct still wins, because you can direct it mentally to do exactly what you want without having to communicate directly, and have to spend a meager 1 pp.

-At 2nd level, the fiendish vermin are an option against the astral construct. They are slightly worse in terms of attack bonus or damage, but the scorpion has 3 attacks and improved grab (it only works against small characters, though). Nothing can beat the construct´s durability, though, with 31 hit points and AC 18. IMO, the construct wins, but it´s not a beating as severe as at the previous level.

-At 3rd level, the monster´s star is the celestial bison. It beats the construct in attack bonus and damage, have damage reduction and more hit points. Less armor, though, but it´s the only disadvantage. Given the fact that you can also summon monsters with more attacks and others with interesting special abilities (like the dire weasel or dire bat) I´d say that at this level summon monster wins.

-At 4th level you can customize the astral construct so it beats every monster in the list in terms of attack bonus and damage. Still, you can choose the howler (those quills are dangerous), the fiendish dire wolf for brute force and trip goodness, and monsters with multiple attacks, like the lion or giant eagle. The construct still has better armor and hit points, but almost every monster has damage reduction. Monsters win.

-At 5th level the construct has 2 attacks and reach, making him quite dangerous, but not much more than, say, the celestial brown bear. The monsters have the interesting Achaierai, bearded devil and hound archon, with spell like and special abilities the construct can´t emulate. The construct clearly wins in terms of damage dealing, specially taking the extra attack special ability, but still it doesn´t have damage reduction (on it´s own, it´s true that it appears in the Menu B list) but the mosters have a slight edge on flexibility, specially when they can summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 monsters with real combat ability.

-At 6th level the champions of brute strenght are the large earth elemental, the celestial polar bear, celestial dire lion, and fiendish constrictor snake. All of them are clearly inferior to a construct with the improved grab option. The construct also gets DR 10/magic, making it really tough to kill. The monsters redeem slightly having monsters with more varied DRs and tricks like the air elemntal´s whirlwind. But if you want to severely beat an enemy, choose the construct.

-Level 7: Whoa. This level has the mighty Huge earth elemental, and even the construct has to admit that 2 slams with +20 (1d8+12) are worse than 2 slams +19 (2d10+9). The elemental even has 50% more hit points and a higher quality DR, good feats for laying waste on enemies, and better reach. The construct is, however, armed with the mighty menu C abilities, and has a lot of flexibility on top of being a combat monster (wich can make him even a better combat monster), but again the monsters have things like the avoral (spells and healing) bone devil (ice wall at will) and again the air elemental´s whirlwind. Also, in terms of pure damage, the fire elemental is also a very valid option.

- Level 8: Again, it´s like watching the Hulk and the Thing wrestling to decide who´s stronger, but this time the astral construct beats the greater earth elemental in terms of brute strenght when using the menu options to increase his damage output. Both are very difficult to kill, enough to distract a powerful foe for (at the very least) a couple rounds. Other monsters,like the lillend and hellcat, are seriously underpowered for the list, and one wonders what are they doing here except taking valuable space. Still, the monsters still have a couple of spellcasting things, but they don´strike me as so useful.

-Level 9: You get the idea, it´s almosta repetition of the previous level. The elder earth elemental still inferior to the construct, but not so much. Menu C options good. Construct smash. Some monsters with minor spellcasting, but till better than the spell-like abilitoes in the construct´s menu, that limits to blasting. Special mention to the leonal´s heal, though it only heals 100 hit points. There are several monsters with good abilities with Fort saves, like the colossal fiendish spider venom (2d8 strenght damage) or the hezrou´s stench, that could be of use againts an spellcaster.

Generally, the constructs are better at combat, but monsters have a little more flexibility to play other roles in combat other than meat shield and damage daler. Though, being sincere, what one wants in a summoned monster is a meat shield and a damage dealer.

Also, if we introduce feats, constructs are the ones that benefit the most, mostly by the overchannel/talented combo, simply because thay can pull more advanced constructs one, two or three levels earlier than wizards of the same level.
 

KarinsDad said:
Question though. Why are your high level enemies allowing your psion and cleric to manifest/cast one round spells without dropping a boatload of hurt on you for doing so?

Not every opponent can do that. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

KarinsDad said:
I don't know about that. Haste is an arcane caster only spell, hence, it requires a Wizard willing to use up several slots a day taking it, or a Sorcerer/Bard willing to give up a known spell in order to boost Fighter types.

Not all groups have that. In our group, we do not have an arcane caster at all.

It's one of the most common spells for arcane casters to take. If your group doesn't have an arcane caster at all then you're the one in an unusual party where standard assumptions don't necessarily apply. I know that probably 4/5 groups I play in in the RPGA's living campaigns have access to haste past level 6 or so and all of the parties in my home group have access to it (and usually prep it) except the one I run which is extremely non-standard D&D with a host of house rules and hardly any casters of any type.

Plus, you keep mentioning Boots of Speed and Weapons of Speed.

Let's be reasonable here, I mentioned them because they're the easiest and most common ways (other than haste) to get a haste effect. There are others--I mentioned two in the previous post and now I remember that there's mithral fullplate of speed in the DMG too. And they are extremely common items that pop up in character builds all over the place. If players have the choice, a lot of them will get boots of speed.

Boots of Speed are 10 rounds per day. Hardly game breaking to get full round attacks with that. Characters with Boots of Speed could turn them on during rounds where they get full round attacks and off on rounds where they do not get full round attacks. With 3 to 4 encounters per day as the guideline, the PsyWar/Fighter does not really get that many additional attacks per day due to his Boots of Speed that the straight Fighter cannot also get by using them intelligently. If you go this route, there is no real gain due to Haste here.

You're missing the boat because you insist on thinking in terms of total attacks without considering when those attacks occur in the combat and who you get them on. A full attack in round 1 is far better than a full attack in round 2 and an extra attack in round 1 is usually better than an extra attack in round 2 because the early attacks force the enemies to adopt a more defensive stance earlier and have the possibility of eliminating an enemy before he has any opportunity to hurt the party.


Weapons of Speed are +3. If you play close to the wealth by level and no item worth more what you earned within the last level, the earliest levels at which a character could get these very potent weapons are:

+1 Weapon of Speed: 32000 GP 14th
+2 Weapon of Speed: 50000 GP 15th
+3 Weapon of Speed: 72000 GP 17th
+4 Weapon of Speed: 98000 GP 18th
+5 Weapon of Speed: 128000 GP 19th

So, if your PsyWar/Fighter is using a +1 Weapon of Speed at 14th level and the straight Fighter decides to just go with the +4 Weapon, the straight Fighter will in the long run still do similar damage. A +5 Weapon of Speed versus a same cost +5 Holy Thundering Weapon, the Weapon of Speed will probably average less damage.


And yes, there are other ways to get Haste effects, but the bottom line is that this is a specific tactic that is good, but hardly game breaking.

You keep insisting that I'm saying it's game breaking. I've never said it was. What I have said is that it changes some of the basic tactics and trade-offs that otherwise apply to melee fighters. Move or full attack is a common and fundamental dilemma and if there's something that can remove that dilemma it changes the way the game is played.

And any DM worth his salt should have arcane enemies occasionally cast Slow to dispel it, especially enemies that have fought the PCs before and have seen their tactics in action.

I'll buy that. However casting slow occasionally does not change the effectiveness of the tactic. (And, indeed, does very little to boots of speed users since they can just activate a new haste from the boots next round).
 

It's also worth noting that fighter types are not "locked in" to doing full attacks that are only damage dealing.

If you get 3 attacks a round at level 8 (thanks to boots of speed), you can use the last attack (at the lowest "to hit") to do a special manoevre such as trip, attack an object, etc. which greatly reduces the AC of the targeted subject.

Nobody makes you use your worst attack vs. the high AC of the enemy...

At most this requires one feat (to do a tricky attack like this, either disarm or trip or etc.) without provoking an AOO. I don't think that's unreasonable for fighterly types, even a barbarian by level 8 or 9.

You can also be additionally tricky by tripping with your 2nd or 1st attack, and using the +4 prone bonus to make up for the lower BAB, etc.

Lots of options -- and only available when full attacking.
 

KarinsDad said:
Question though. Why are your high level enemies allowing your psion and cleric to manifest/cast one round spells without dropping a boatload of hurt on you for doing so?
You've brought this up a number of times. Time I lay it to rest, I think. :)

Just like any other tactic, summoning monsters (or creating A-Cs) requires you to pick an appropriate time. Toe-to-toe with a melee brute is probably not the right time. :)

Fortunately, the Wiz, Clr, Drd, or Psi have the abilities to avoid the enemy, as well as companions who act as friendly meat shields. In fact, most of the time when combat begins, the spell-caster/power-manifester is NOT on the front lines....it's all about marching order, right? (If the Wiz/Psi/Sor/whatever is always in the front lines.....he's got other problems. :) )

(Of course there are exceptions, etc. Your PC, for example, seems built around a direct melee option.)

Playing a Clr that summons, I've only rarely been in a combat in which I could not summon a monster. DMing a Drd that summons, I was rarely able to prevent her from summoning (yep, I do know how). Same thing (different group) with the Psi(shaper).

The Point: You are _way_ "over-weighting" the 1 round casting time vulnerability. Big time. It's simply not the issue you think it is. Try it in your game!
 

Someone said:
Generally, the constructs are better at combat, but monsters have a little more flexibility to play other roles in combat other than meat shield and damage daler. Though, being sincere, what one wants in a summoned monster is a meat shield and a damage dealer.
Good analysis, Someone!

As someone who's played a high level summoner, I can tell you the ACs of the summoned monsters suck, DR or no. And as for the DR....a DR of 10/magic is often completely useless; there are enough bad guys with magic weapons in the campaigns I play in.

Moreover, the flexibility of the A. Construct's power lists easily dwarfs the supposed spell-casting utility of the summoned monsters. It's really no contest.

For example, a 9th level construct (overchanneled by our party's Psi(shaper), and so gotten 2 levels earlier than the Wiz or Clr ...and boost construct feat) can be this monster:

  • Huge Construct AC: 41, Hp:144, Atks: 3 slams +28 melee (3d6+16)
    .........and the Trip(ex).....and dimensional slide as a move action

Whereas at the same PC level (15), the best the Wiz/Clr can do is this (with Augment summoning...no other feats will help!):

  • Greater(Huge) Earth Elemental AC 20, hp:241 Atks: 2 slams +23 melee (2d10+10)
    .........and has DR 10/-

Before you get all gah-gah over the elemental's DR and hp, say it with me: Power Attack. Look at that AC! :( The elemental may be able to take damage...but the A-C is never gonna be hit, even by the elemental! And the A-C will do substantially more damage than the elemental!!! And the A-C can trip on each attack it makes, as a free action...... And the A-C can move where ever its needed, in an instant, and still get a trip attack in.

Ugg. This is as good as SM can dish out? Sign me up for the psionic version, please.
 

Yes, we pretty much agree, notice how I intentionally left out feats in the comparison and mentioned them at the end, or otherwise the post would have been too long. Of course, once you include feats it benefits the construct even more, simply because the shaper has more of them to apply (overchannel, talented and boost construct against only augment summoning) I´d say this is more a problem with Overchannel than the power, though.

When I said flexibility I wasn´t talking of combat flexibility. I already said that the construct wins in that, big time: he can select the abilities you want, and add them to an already powerful combat brute. I said that there are other options in the monster list that could be useful, like some spell-like abilities, spellcasting monsters and the ability to call 1d3 or 1d4+1 monsters. But since they come in play once in a while and the construct´s advanced combat ability comes in play always, the construct´s options are more useful than the monsters´ flexibility.

Talking about the elemental against the construct, I don´t think its´too important if the construct can actually beat the earth elemental or not. What it´s important is what they can face. The construct may be tougher than the elemental, but it´s really worth if it lasts 6 (or 9, it doesn´t matter) rounds instead of 3? Many high level battles are decided in 3 rounds, and if you make a foe waste 3 rounds on the elemental, it´s a spell well used, and the construct´s AC 41 may very well be overkill.

Also, by my experience, you don´t care at all if the construct or the elemental live or die, and offense is much more valuable in those than defense.
 

Someone said:
Yes, we pretty much agree...
You bet! Sorry if my post's reply wasn't clear...I'm kinda aiming this at KarinsDad. ...In a nice way. :)

Someone said:
Of course, once you include feats it benefits the construct even more, simply because the shaper has more of them to apply (overchannel, talented and boost construct against only augment summoning).
I didn't know about this until after our Psi(shaper started throwing around his weight. I had no idea the flexibility granted by those psionic feats. Strange how there's no arcane equivalent to such power.....

...oh yeah, I forgot: Psions are just better. :confused: ;)

Someone said:
... there are other options in the monster list that could be useful, like some spell-like abilities, spellcasting monsters and the ability to call 1d3 or 1d4+1 monsters.
Sure. I've tried my hardest (as a Clr 15) to take advantage of that. It's only very occasionally useful, as you point out. Most times, you just need a meat-shield/flanker/extra target.

Someone said:
The construct may be tougher than the elemental, but <is it> really worth if it lasts 6 rounds instead of 3? Many high level battles are decided in 3 rounds, and if you make a foe waste 3 rounds on the elemental, it´s a spell well used, and the construct´s AC 41 may very well be overkill.
IME, it's not overkill. YMMV, of course. At EL 15 - 17, you can face monsters that have +35 attack bonuses. These same threats often have the Power Attack feat. Combine the 2, and your Earth Elemental is getting PAed for 20 or so, and still getting hit all the time. What DR ? :)

Also, IME, our battles last 7 to 9 rounds. They are often decided by round 3 or so (perhaps even round one, depending on placement), but having the SM or A-C around for the entire time is very useful.

.....

If the psion A-C is not unbalanced....how about this: the wizard and cleric can use the A-C too! How many times would you ever see the wizard not use an A-C? :p
 

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