For Nail - The Psion

[Dracomeander]

Why doesn't this Psion wear some light magical armor (mithral chain, mithral buckler) instead of using Intertial Armor/Thicken Skin? Why doesn't this Psion want to use the great advantage of being able to wear armor?

I'd like to address this point since it has been brought up several times in past threads.

At the very lowest levels, my psions will wear masterwork studded leather armor if he can afford it. If the party is willing to let the psion instead of the rogue wear the mithril chain shirt that we found, I'll even use that for a while.

However, the psion has no proficiency with armor. None at all. So any armor worn - while it won't interfere with his psionic powers - interferes with anything else the character tries to do.

Also, after about 5th level, the protection from Inertial Armor far exceeds the protection my characters can afford to purchase in the form of enhancements to any armor my character is willing to wear. Even at 11th level, when my psion gained a level in Elocator and gained light armor proficiency, it is still more efficient to gain +9 AC from inertial armor for 11 hours than to try to purchase a +4 mithril breastplate. The other consideration is the additional cost to get ghost touch put on the armor as incorporeal undead have been a frequent - not constant - foe in our campaign.

 

[Dracomeander]

So, the question is, if a Psion DOES use up all their power points in, for example, 1 battle: what does that mean, exactly?

a) The Psion was incredibly wasteful and wanton in their use of power points.
b) The encounter was very, very difficult, and the power points had to be expended to save the Psion, kill the enemies, rescue party members, etc.

As long as you are not incredibly inefficient, using up all your power points in one single battle isn't a bad thing. The ABILITY to do so isn't a disadvantage, to be sure. After all, if it was a Wizard instead of a Psion in the battle, perhaps the party suffers a TPK (it was the Psions' ability to max everything out that saved everyone's rears).

My point: if a Psion isn't being wasteful and does manage to use all their power points in one battle, the party better thank their lucky stars they had a Psion around. Else they might very well all be dead (the encouter was very, very, very tough).

This is a very good point and has a direct converse. There have been several times that the party as a whole has been thankful for the powers and abilities my psion has brought to the team, but my psion has constantly been thankful for the abilities and strengths the 1/2 orc barbarian and the warforged fighter have brought to the team.

That is the key to the whole balance issue. Is the party working as a team, or are they each trying to outshine the others?

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm honestly not sure how helpful of an example this is. Is it typical for a Psion to burn 40% of their power points BEFORE getting into the first combat of the day?

Your question is irrelevant to my original point that she would have still been limited to two combats (instead of the three or four combats as some earlier posters claimed).

You question also does not change the fact that she used up (and typically uses up) well over 50% of her PP in a single combat. I suspect that most psions do that as well unless they are really high level.

Is this really a viable and good tactical strategy, or one that you just like to use, or one specific to the PC in question?

You tell me. Is +10 to AC with no penalties to hit or skills or movement or fatigue better or worse than +5 to AC (e.g. chainmail or a breastplate) and a bunch of penalties?

Do the math.

What would happen if, instead of buring up 40% of those power points, they were instead used in the first few rounds of combat to do bunches of damage to the enemy (best defense is a good offense theory).

Why doesn't this Psion wear some light magical armor (mithral chain, mithral buckler) instead of using Intertial Armor/Thicken Skin? Why doesn't this Psion want to use the great advantage of being able to wear armor?

In general, I'm wary of these sorts of specific (and unusual?) examples.

Well, you play your way, I'll play mine.

This character has only gone unconscious once from first level to eighth (and that was at second level and due to her fighting all of the bad guys by herself because the rest of the party was stuck 15 feet below her and then she jumped off the ledge when she ran out of PP and knocked herself out).

The reason she does not go unconscious is that she took a lot of defensive powers.

She has offensive powers and uses them, but every character has offense. Offense sometimes wins the day, but what typically wins the day is good tactics.


This psion also has, on several occasions, helped take out the BBEG with Psionic Weapon and her Greatsword (on two occasions, she took out the BBEG all by herself with her sword). Now, she could use up feats or a level in another class acquiring armor, but that would limit her in other ways. And wearing armor without acquiring the feats for it would result in her rarely hitting with her sword.

In fact, at earlier levels, she often did more damage with her Greatsword than most of the fighter types. And, she also used leather armor at lower levels and eventually, +1 Studded Leather armor. But, IA makes them look weak and she eventually gave her +1 Studded Leather to the Ranger/Barbarian.


We have another Psion in the group who took 2 levels of Fighter and walks around in a magical breastplate and does not manifest Interial Armor.

He too runs out of PP very quickly using your (according to you, superior wear armor) tactic. The difference is that his character has gone unconscious on multiple occasions (one major combat in three?) and mine has not. Personally, I think that my tactic is not only superior, but that the example I gave is fairly typical in that psions tend to use up well over half of their PP in a single challenging battle.


PS. I do not always do 7 PP full Interial Armor, in fact, I mostly walk around with 1 PP Interial Armor up and then manifest a 7 PP one before going into combat, a dungeon, a ruin, whatever. But, we were in a threatening situation, so I had Interial Armor up 24/7.

 

[two]

"You tell me. Is +10 to AC with no penalties to hit or skills or movement or fatigue better or worse than +5 to AC (e.g. chainmail or a breastplate) and a bunch of penalties?

Do the math."

er, just to state the obvious --

+2 mithral chain shirt, and a +2 mithral buckler grants +9 bonus to AC (armor and shield bonuses) for a total of roughly 10K. That's one of the best bonus-per-gold spent in the game.

That's certainly affordable at your level -- and has no armor check penalty at all. NO feat needed. It doesn't effect skills or movement in the least.

That's a +9 to your AC that requires no power points at all.

At the very least, it's a viable alternative to spending power points, thus my question.

And, if you can, be less snippy? I'm not trying to tell you how to play your PC (I honestly don't care); I'm just attempting to figure out your reasoning.

 

[KarinsDad]

er, just to state the obvious --

+2 mithral chain shirt, and a +2 mithral buckler grants +9 bonus to AC (armor and shield bonuses) for a total of roughly 10K. That's one of the best bonus-per-gold spent in the game.

That's certainly affordable at your level -- and has no armor check penalty at all. NO feat needed. It doesn't effect skills or movement in the least.

That's a +9 to your AC that requires no power points at all.

At the very least, it's a viable alternative to spending power points, thus my question.

er, just to state the obvious --

That's 10,115 GP which results in +9 AC, a -1 to hit (buckler with two handed sword), and 15 more pounds to carry around.

Versus 0 GP and 2 PP (out of my 76 at 8th level for Inerial Armor and Force Screen) which results in +8 AC, a -0 to hit, 0 more pounds to carry around, and the flexibility to up my AC by as much as +12 with just these two powers alone (let alone other powers).


And yes, if the extra 15 pounds for the shirt and buckler puts her into medium encumbrance (which is extremely easy to do in DND), it does indead affect to hit, skills and movement (and also limits the Dex bonus for AC to +3).

Mithral armor does not prevent the 20 movement rate and -3 armor check of being in a medium load.


So far, this is not even close to being a viable alternative for a straight psion. At low level, sure. Buy some leather armor and use it. Not at higher levels.


And at 12th level and beyond with the Extend feat, Inertial Armor could be up over 24 hours straight (except when Dispelled) from one manifestation. You manifest it, you go to bed, the next morning you have all of your PP back and you are also "armored up". At 16th level, it lasts for 32 hours and even if you run out of PP on a given day, Extend Inertial Armor lasts long enough so that you can manifest it on the second morning.

 

[Diirk]

Versus 0 GP and 2 PP (out of my 76 at 8th level for Inerial Armor and Force Screen) which results in +8 AC, a -0 to hit, 0 more pounds to carry around, and the flexibility to up my AC by as much as +12 with just these two powers alone (let alone other powers).

In this particular combat, she had already used up 21 PP that day, 7 PP for Inertial Armor that morning, 7 PP for Interial Armor that afternoon, 7 PP for Thicken Skin just before the encounter.

At 10 strength a light load is up to 33 lbs.. 12 str <= 43 lbs, 14 <= 58 lbs.. so I guess it depends how strong your psion is and what else you're carrying. But if 15 lbs is such a big deal, that suggests you have a quite low str (10?), so why are you wading into combat with a 2h weapon? The -1 to hit with the buckler isn't fair anyway, as then the buckler ac bonus wouldn't apply. He probably had in mind using a one handed weapon, or even no weapon at all. And like, using psionic powers or something.

Obviously you prefer not to play your character that way, but its fairly obvious it can be a good way to play it, as can be shown by you spending 1/5th your daily allotment of pp on boosting your ac by 10? for most of the day Besides, it frees you up to pick different powers. (Which is the main reason I did a similair thing on my sorceror)

 

[KarinsDad]

At 10 strength a light load is up to 33 lbs.. 12 str <= 43 lbs, 14 <= 58 lbs.. so I guess it depends how strong your psion is and what else you're carrying. But if 15 lbs is such a big deal, that suggests you have a quite low str (10?), so why are you wading into combat with a 2h weapon? The -1 to hit with the buckler isn't fair anyway, as then the buckler ac bonus wouldn't apply. He probably had in mind using a one handed weapon, or even no weapon at all. And like, using psionic powers or something.

Obviously you prefer not to play your character that way, but its fairly obvious it can be a good way to play it, as can be shown by you spending 1/5th your daily allotment of pp on boosting your ac by 10? for most of the day Besides, it frees you up to pick different powers. (Which is the main reason I did a similair thing on my sorceror)

Have you actually played the encumbrance rules in your game? Or do you blow them off?

Everything in DND weighs a LOT.

A simple waterskin: 4 pounds.

A bedroll: 5 pounds.

A character with a 10 Str carrying a belt pouch, a bedroll, a single days trail rations, a waterskin, the Mithral Chain Shirt, the Mithral Buckler, and a Greatsword (which in DND is carrying next to nothing) is carrying 37.5 pounds and is in a medium encumbrance category by 4.5 pounds.

It is extremely easy to get into a Medium Encumbrance category in DND, even if you have a reasonable Strength. My psion has a Strength of 14, but even at 58 pounds for a light load, using the Mithral Chain Shirt and Mithral Buckler is over 25% of what she can carry and drops the rest of her allowable equipment to 43 pounds.


And for Mithral Armor/Shield to be viable for any character, let alone a psion, that character needs to allocate a lot of funds towards that in order to have a fair chance of not getting hit in combat. Funds which can be better used to enhance other abilities or shore up other weaknesses.

Plus for any character class that does not have any armor/shield feats, a Mithral Chain Shirt is the best armor that character can get without sacrificing to hit. Once you get to Mithral Scalemail or heavier armor, a character without those feats will be taking a armor check penalty to hit.

My psion is an Egoist. Her strengths lie in boosting her AC and other physical abilities. It would be dumb to not play to her strengths.

Ditto for other psions. A Kineticist should attempt to blow opponents away. A Telepath should attempt to sway opponent's minds, etc.


Finally, even the other psion in our group (Fighter 2 / Kineticist 4 / Elocater 1) who is wearing a magical Breastplate still uses up PP in every combat boosting his AC and other defenses. He uses Force Screen, Concealing Amorpha, Biofeedback, and/or Precognition, Defensive nearly every combat.

But in order for him to wear armor all of the time (and qualify for the Elocater class early on), he had to give up PP and manifester level as well. Nothing comes for free.

He has 42 PP at 7th level whereas my character had 58 PP at the same level (at 8th level, he will have 55 PP whereas my psion has 76 PP and the delta will be even greater). So yes, you can go the armor route, but the fact that you have fewer PP to begin with (about 25% fewer in this example) can easily make up for the PP spent on AC when a psion does not wear armor.

Plus, my higher AC psion gets hit a lot less often and is less of a burden to the party Cleric. You can have all of the PP in the world, but if you are dead, they are not going to help you.

 

[two]

er, just to state the obvious --

That's 10,115 GP which results in +9 AC, a -1 to hit (buckler with two handed sword), and 15 more pounds to carry around.

Versus 0 GP and 2 PP (out of my 76 at 8th level for Inerial Armor and Force Screen) which results in +8 AC, a -0 to hit, 0 more pounds to carry around, and the flexibility to up my AC by as much as +12 with just these two powers alone (let alone other powers).


And yes, if the extra 15 pounds for the shirt and buckler puts her into medium encumbrance (which is extremely easy to do in DND), it does indead affect to hit, skills and movement (and also limits the Dex bonus for AC to +3).

Mithral armor does not prevent the 20 movement rate and -3 armor check of being in a medium load.


So far, this is not even close to being a viable alternative for a straight psion. At low level, sure. Buy some leather armor and use it. Not at higher levels.


And at 12th level and beyond with the Extend feat, Inertial Armor could be up over 24 hours straight (except when Dispelled) from one manifestation. You manifest it, you go to bed, the next morning you have all of your PP back and you are also "armored up". At 16th level, it lasts for 32 hours and even if you run out of PP on a given day, Extend Inertial Armor lasts long enough so that you can manifest it on the second morning.

Ok, so much for you not being snippy.

And we are not talking about 12th level Psion with the Extend feat. I'm asking why it's a viable thing for your Psion at what, 7th or 8th level?

One who uses a 2-handed sword on occasion in combat? Yet the addition of 15 pounds drives him/her over encumbrance? What are you doing in combat with a 2-handed weapon with a strength of <12 anyway? Heck, why is a Psion that focuses on combat NOT using amor?

No saying you build is stupid, wrong, illogical, or inefficient. But I don't think it's "typical", and examples coming from it are probably not too "typical" either.

PS the reason Wizards and Sorcerers don't wear mithral armor isn't weight, by the way -- it's ASF. Psion's don't suffer this. It's a chance for them to leverage another small advantage. Which makes we wonde why you are not doing it. Thus my question.

I was just looking for your reasoning for heaven's sake! Play anyway you want, I could care less.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, so much for you not being snippy.

Who exactly wrote first:

"er, just to state the obvious --"

I merely repeated your own words back at you. If you do not like how I post, don't respond to me.

Pot calling the kettle black there two???

And we are not talking about 12th level Psion with the Extend feat. I'm asking why it's a viable thing for your Psion at what, 7th or 8th level?

And I explained it multiple times in this thread, but you obviously cannot be bothered to actually read it.

One who uses a 2-handed sword on occasion in combat? Yet the addition of 15 pounds drives him/her over encumbrance? What are you doing in combat with a 2-handed weapon with a strength of <12 anyway? Heck, why is a Psion that focuses on combat NOT using amor?

Because it is smarter to not focus on armor. Course, even with my explanations and the fact that my psion does extremely well in combat, you still refuse to see the obvious.

Open your mind up to other possibilities than armor.

My psion has a Strength of 14 and can do Animal Affinity to get her Str to 18 and uses Psionic Meditation and Psionic Weapon. THAT is why she is using a Greatsword. With just using Psionic Meditation and Psionic Weapon, she does 4D6+5 points of damage (without bumping up her Strength). How many Fighters do you know that consistently do 4D6+5 points of damage at 8th level?

Plus, my psion can boost her AC up to 38 if she so desires. Why would she want to be bothered with wasting her money on mithral armor?

No saying you build is stupid, wrong, illogical, or inefficient. But I don't think it's "typical", and examples coming from it are probably not too "typical" either.

And that is why I also gave an example from the Fighter/Psion in our group as well.

I think a psion wearing armor and using a shield without another class that grants the appropriate feats is what is atypical here. Not a psion who does not have the feats wearing armor. That's dumb and not "typical". Personally, I think your suggestion here is lame.

PS the reason Wizards and Sorcerers don't wear mithral armor isn't weight, by the way -- it's ASF. Psion's don't suffer this. It's a chance for them to leverage another small advantage. Which makes we wonde why you are not doing it. Thus my question.

And I have answered it multiple times and you have ignored the answer multiple times.

It is stupid for a mid to high level psion to wear armor unless they have another class or a prestige class that gives them the armor feats. It is not an advantage, it is a disadvantage to wear armor without the appropriate feats.

Inertial Armor and Force Screen gives them a higher AC boost than magical armor and shield ever could. For an average of less than 2 PP per combat, a psion can get AC 18 from 1 PP Inertial Armor and 1 PP Force Screen and do BETTER encumbrance-wise than your example of +2 Mithral Chain Shirt and +2 Mithral Buckler for a whopping 10,000+ GP.

Plus, psions only have D4 hit points and cannot stand toe to toe with combatant types and monsters unless their AC is higher than combatant types.

Sure, a Fighter can have a lower AC and survive because he has cool combat feats and high hit points.

A Psion cannot.

 

[two]

Well, given that you can't seem to hold a discussion with even a minimum of politeness, I'll just remove myself from the discussion -- [gone]