For Nail - The Psion

[Scion]

And to show SM is balanced, to what shall I compare it, O arbiter of comparisons?

You keep on shifting what you are going for, but I keep trying to tell you the same thing anyway. I'll try it in a slightly different way this time.

Apparently you feel that AC is unbalanced in some way. Given this you have said that, 'compared to SM AC is unabalanced in some way'. I have said, 'that isnt helpful, each has a different emphasis and they do very different things' To which you replied something like, 'well, I want to compare them anyway'. So then I mentioned that you would need a few things in order to make this a useful comparison at all.

First of all, you will need to show that SM is balanced. You believe it is apparently, so prove it in some way. Without this we wont even know what we are comparing to. Any conclusions reached will be worse than useless because they will be misleading.

Secondly, we will need some ground work. Over which range are we talking? All encounters? only certain types? Anything from the various manuals? Etc etc.

It may turn out that SM is good in situations A, B, and C while AC is good in situations X, Y, Z. But then SM can be used in situations X, Y, and Z to some degree that is below the AC's ability, but AC has essentially zero impact on A, B, and C. Who wins then?

Also, you have put up your cleric guy who beats the psion out of the water in very nearly every field possible, and yet it is a problem for some reason that one of the few things the psion can still maybe do better in certain circumstances.. so much of a problem that you want him beat with the nerf stick apparently. Given just how good the cleric is in so many other areas I would not blame the psion to be wanting a major buff 'and' to beat the cleric guy with the nerf stick.

Yet here we are. You want a comparison and when I ask you to lay out the groundwork and some of your reasonings for the side of comparison you should feel more comfortable with there is no information coming. I am not sure if you are working on it or if it is just something etheral that is floating around with the golden sign of, 'it is core, therefor it must be balanced'

Eh, you are the one who is gung-ho about this comparison, I just want it to be done correctly if it is going to be done for some reason.

So please, stop jumping around on subjects and ignoring the question. If you want to do this comparison then the groundwork needs to be laid out. If it isnt then what could you possibly hope for?

 

[Scion]

I afraid Scion will disagree. He'll say either a) SNA is not the Druid's schtick, or b) SNA does different things than A-C.

Are you actually talking on some other thread that I am not allowed to be a part of?

Please do not put words in my mouth. Also, please stick to the point you apparently want to go over. If you cannot do the basic stuff how can there be any higher order objectives?

 

[Someone]

And to show SM is balanced, to what shall I compare it, O arbiter of comparisons?

I don´t know. Maybe with Summon Nature´s Ally, or maybe not. Anyway, with all the variables and combinations of feats, spells and powers, the comparison is difficult. What´s more helpful to the party, a boosted overchanneled astral construct VI, or 1d4+1 augmented animal growthed dire wolves? You can pull both tricks at character level 9.

What if the designers really wanted to make the constructs more powerful than the summoned monsters, for whatever reason? Maybe they said "After all, clerics and wizards do a lot of things other than summoning monsters, and have other options like planar binding and planar ally to bring help. And if we want to make shapers attractive, we should make good astral constructs". It´s a valid reason, though I don´t know how much sound. In the end it comes to playtesting: you and others say tha the psions in your games are very powerful, more than other characters. I´ve read others saying they are ok, and I have some experience about them on my own, having played a couple mid-level NPC psions. The idea I´ve polished in this time is that they are very good, certainly better than sorcerers and a match to wizards, and that there are some powers and combos of feats and powers that may need to be house ruled. I at least, have waited to form an opinion after the playtesting, instead of dismissing all the book as unbalanced just after reading it.

 

[Jhulae]

Seriously, you can't really compare SNA to SM without SM being shown up as weak, so how can you use SM as a 'yardstick' for other summoning abilities like AC?

If you say SM is the 'baseline', again, right in core there's something that blows it out of the water.

 

[Nail]

So, let's compare A-C to SNA then.

.....wow, has this thread gotten far afield.

 

[green slime]

Except, if you can't necessarily compare one build in Core with another build in Core how can you consider that a 'baseline'?

Except you can. People do it all the time. You may argue over the method of comparisson, and disagree with the conclusions that people draw. Which is reflects more of the values that people place on abilities, (which is subjective), than the abilities themselves. Nonetheless, core is the baseline. If you dismiss the core rules as a baseline for comparisson, then you may as well start comparing Mango Juice to Fighters.

Mango Juice is often more yellow. And sweeter to drink, unless you are a Vampire or "Brainsssss" zombie.

 

[Scion]

Nonetheless, core is the baseline. If you dismiss the core rules as a baseline for comparisson, then you may as well start comparing Mango Juice to Fighters.

Ok then, compared with druids and clerics, psions need a 'major' boost.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Just as long as you're admitting that Astral Constructs are tougher than Summoned Monsters...

Actually, Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally top out at the same place (elder elementals at level 9) so the high level comparison doesn't get any more favorable to core rules than the low level comparison, but the lower level SNAs are unquestionably better than the lower level Summon Monsters. (The only thing that Summon Monster has going for it in the comparison is that protection from evil or magic circle vs. evil doesn't shut it down completely--that and maybe the dretch if you can tell it what to do and get it to do what you want).

I don´t know. Maybe with Summon Nature´s Ally, or maybe not. Anyway, with all the variables and combinations of feats, spells and powers, the comparison is difficult. What´s more helpful to the party, a boosted overchanneled astral construct VI, or 1d4+1 augmented animal growthed dire wolves? You can pull both tricks at character level 9.

What if the designers really wanted to make the constructs more powerful than the summoned monsters, for whatever reason?

 

[Scion]

Astral Constructs are tougher than Summoned Monsters

tougher != more useful however, nor more powerful overall

 

[A Man In Black]

Just as long as you're admitting that Astral Constructs are tougher than Summoned Monsters...

Actually, Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally top out at the same place (elder elementals at level 9) so the high level comparison doesn't get any more favorable to core rules than the low level comparison, but the lower level SNAs are unquestionably better than the lower level Summon Monsters. (The only thing that Summon Monster has going for it in the comparison is that protection from evil or magic circle vs. evil doesn't shut it down completely--that and maybe the dretch if you can tell it what to do and get it to do what you want).

For what it's worth, non-druid summoners are going to have access to Planar Binding, Planar Ally, and/or Gate in addition to SNA/SM, whereas a psion has only AC to work with.


Something related to the validity-of-core-comparisons argument, is the greater tendency of clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards to benefit from non-core material (new spells are more common than new powers, new metamagic feats are more common than new metapsi feats, there are more feats to enhance summons than ACs, etc.) a value worth considering? Many, many games use more than core, even if it's just a setting book with some crunchy bits.