D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Snarf Zagyg]

so, I guess I'm your bogeyman.

Not anymore.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Tamarians like Starfire

Not that kind of Tamarian mate lol. We're talking TNG.

For example, if I wanted to explain to you why My Hero Academia is so revolutionary and cool, I need to explain The Big Three (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece) and how they relate to Dragonball and Dragonball Z and how that was a response to shows like Fist of the North Star.

That is a lot of context, but I've done it, repeatedly, for people who have no anime experience at all.

I'm not rejecting the idea of culture. I understand what cultural shorthand is.

I'm sure you could do it - I could do it with Sword and Sorcery, with say, half an hour in person, and you paying attention to what I was saying (in a way that's hard to achieve with text, unless you spend hours carefully writing it, and the other person doesn't skim it).

But it takes a while, and you need back and forth - the other person asking questions, getting clarifications, and so on. With your anime example, I mean, you'd definitely need at least that long unless the person was familiar with some/all of that, and probably a lot longer, to actually explain it in a way so that they weren't merely nodding, but actually understanding. Explaining Fist of the North Star alone is like, at least five minutes, longer if the person hasn't seen Mad Max. That said, "Omae, wa mou shindeiru" has been something my gaming group has been saying since the early '90s so we get it! I could follow you up to DBZ but my lack of familiarity with Bleach (there are swords? maybe?) and One Piece (it's about pirates and there's a guy with a straw hat and stretchy arms?) and even Naruto (he's a ninja and a there's chick with a high forehead and a lot of filler episodes and they run silly?) would probably mean you'd need to work pretty hard

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, how do you feel about remaking “Citizen Kane”?

More seriously, cinephiles love “citizen Kane”. Is it something most moviegoers (a lot of which are casual) would enjoy? I’m not sure.

I actually watch a lot of cinema critics online, and that seems to be a common thing. Discussing how the general audience views something compared to the dedicated cinephile.

For an example that stuck with me, someone (this was years ago) was reviewing a movie I thought was quite decent, but they spent a good ten to fifteen minutes of the review talking about the opening sequence of the panning shot. I guess it was overdone in the extreme, and as part of their point, they listed about a dozen movies that had done the exact same shot within the last five years.

Of course, I realized quite quickly.... I'd only seen like two of those movies.

So, a tired trope they were sick of, was still quite novel to me, simply because I watch far fewer movies than they do. So, the effect had stayed stronger longer, in my perspective.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I guess I can understand that all the "famous" people are good (Though, I thought Minsc was crazy and I've never even heard the name Sir Isteval before)

But... Seriously. I've been in about four or five different campaigns set in the Realms. I'm the only one who plays a good character. I don't know what expectation exists for other people, but no one I know would say that a Realms character is supposed to be "Good"

Hey, I'm not going to argue with your game experience in the Forgotten Realms. But if you look at the recent 5E modules, there is a pretty big expectation that the heroes are in it for more than just "the loot." Descent into Avernus for example; any non-good character would look at the prospect of going to Avernus to save Baldur's Gate as very much a "nope, I'm out, not going to do it." The same for Tomb of Annihilation and Out of the Abyss; there's an expectation that your goal is chiefly to save the world.

Compared to Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which has no such expectations; almost every hook has some monetary gain for the player, to ensure they go adventure. There is an expectation that the adventurers need that incentive to adventure.

And again, just because that is your experience with FR (of a non-good party) I would say that FR is setup in a way to try to encourage morally-good characters, both in its long series of novels and how the modules are laid out. You don't need to play a morally good player, but the setting is setup in a way to make such play extremely easy (while in Greyhawk or Dark Sun, a good character is more likely to meet ethical challenges).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So, how do you feel about remaking “Citizen Kane”?

More seriously, cinephiles love “citizen Kane”. Is it something most moviegoers (a lot of which are casual) would enjoy? I’m not sure.

Well, the analogy isn't perfect; obviously, a Campaign Setting is a lot different that a movie. I was only adding a familiar example of how something can be great in many ways, but a person who chooses to remain ignorant of history will not be able to understand parts of it, especially those parts that were aped by later movies (or incorporated into later settings).

Would I watch Citizen Kane II: Rosebuddier, a new Adam Sandler comedy? Maybe.

But as I wrote before, despite the tragic mismanagement of the IP, it continues to be one of the most significant and popular campaign settings that WoTC owns. It would be truly bizarre if they didn't want to use it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not that kind of Tamarian mate lol. We're talking TNG.

TNG? I'm guessing that is supposed to be Next Generation? Sorry. Never watched Star Trek either.

By the time I had a TV to watch stuff on, Next Generation (if that was the one running) was on reruns late at night, on a channel I likely just skipped past.

Heck, it wasn't until we got fancy cable in high school that I even saw a TV guide for the first time, and could look up shows to watch instead of stumbling upon them randomly.

I'm sure you could do it - I could do it with Sword and Sorcery, with say, half an hour in person, and you paying attention to what I was saying (in a way that's hard to achieve with text, unless you spend hours carefully writing it, and the other person doesn't skim it).

But it takes a while, and you need back and forth - the other person asking questions, getting clarifications, and so on. With your anime example, I mean, you'd definitely need at least that long unless the person was familiar with some/all of that, and probably a lot longer, to actually explain it in a way so that they weren't merely nodding, but actually understanding. Explaining Fist of the North Star alone is like, at least five minutes, longer if the person hasn't seen Mad Max. That said, "Omae, wa mou shindeiru" has been something my gaming group has been saying since the early '90s so we get it! I could follow you up to DBZ but my lack of familiarity with Bleach (there are swords? maybe?) and One Piece (it's about pirates and there's a guy with a straw hat and stretchy arms?) and even Naruto (he's a ninja and a there's chick with a high forehead and a lot of filler episodes and they run silly?) would probably mean you'd need to work pretty hard

Eh, not really.

The concept line between DBZ and the other three is that the "training to become ever stronger" trope got baked into them. And they were massively successful, but especially in Bleach and Naruto, the "and this enemy is even stronger" part of the formula was really rough and hard to get around.

Most people kind of give DBZ a pass on it, because it was the first to do it.

Then, knowing that, it is easier to see why the fact that Deku and the others do not get stronger per se, or develop new abilities, and simply find new ways to use the power they have. For example, Deku figures out that instead of putting 100% of his super strength into a body part (and shattering every bone in that body part) he can put 5% of it across his whole body. Which changes everything about how he fights and reacts from then on out.

No new power or new mode, like DBZ pioneered, but using your power in a new way.

But yeah, a lot shorter and easier to explain, if you have the majority of the context.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Hey, I'm not going to argue with your game experience in the Forgotten Realms. But if you look at the recent 5E modules, there is a pretty big expectation that the heroes are in it for more than just "the loot." Descent into Avernus for example; any non-good character would look at the prospect of going to Avernus to save Baldur's Gate as very much a "nope, I'm out, not going to do it." The same for Tomb of Annihilation and Out of the Abyss; there's an expectation that your goal is chiefly to save the world.

Compared to Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which has no such expectations; almost every hook has some monetary gain for the player, to ensure they go adventure. There is an expectation that the adventurers need that incentive to adventure.

And again, just because that is your experience with FR (of a non-good party) I would say that FR is setup in a way to try to encourage morally-good characters, both in its long series of novels and how the modules are laid out. You don't need to play a morally good player, but the setting is setup in a way to make such play extremely easy (while in Greyhawk or Dark Sun, a good character is more likely to meet ethical challenges).

I suppose this raises an interesting point.

Are the Adventure Paths, the setting?

Because, to me, they are different. A setting is more than a single campaign or adventure. So, even if all of the APs make you the big world-saving heroes, that doesn't mean the setting encourages it.

Now, clearly the realms don't discourage it, and I think you are right that a morally righteous character would have a harder time in Greyhawk or Dark Sun, comparatively. I guess I find the Realms more "alignment neutral" than "you should be good."

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I suppose this raises an interesting point.

Are the Adventure Paths, the setting?

Because, to me, they are different. A setting is more than a single campaign or adventure. So, even if all of the APs make you the big world-saving heroes, that doesn't mean the setting encourages it.

Now, clearly the realms don't discourage it, and I think you are right that a morally righteous character would have a harder time in Greyhawk or Dark Sun, comparatively. I guess I find the Realms more "alignment neutral" than "you should be good."

I won't say that the modules and the setting are the exact same thing (they're not), but I do think that the setting impacts the modules and vice-versa.

For example, most folks would say that Dark Sun discourages morally good characters, as you need to make tough choices to survive in such a harsh environment. And although I think that's true, that doesn't mean you can't play such characters. You totally can play a team of morally good characters who are on a mission to overthrow each Sorcerer King one by one, replace them with just and kind rulers and encourage magic that heals the world. That would be a fun campaign too.

So yes, I think that if the recent modules for a setting all have this expectation that you're world saving heroes, there is an expectation for the setting that matches. That doesn't mean you need to follow that expectation to be "faithful to the setting" or any other bullocks like that. That doesn't mean you "should be good," if you're playing FR. But the setting is designed in such a way to make playing good characters extremely easy, and I'd say the modules encourage it.

 

[Todd Roybark]

So you're going to go your entire career without Advantage, when Advantage is a key part of what makes GWM so competitive? Talking about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The point is DPS is not the only 'stat' to optimize for. The point, (subtle as it may have been), is even a non-optimized small sized Barbarian using GWM can still use the -5/+10 portion just as well as any non Barbarian.
This is before considering friendly creatures casting Enlarge on the small PC, or custom magic items like a Belt of Giant Stature, that not only increases the wielders strength, but also their effective size for Carrying considerations and Grappling....the stuff of real play.

An Ancestors Barbarian built around action denial and group damage mitigation might never pick up GWM. A player might want to use the Barbarian class to role play the Scout Role.
A 4th level half-orc Barbarian with the Prodigy feat isn't non optimized, it is just optimized with a different goal then DPR.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm sorry my father only had Narnia, Xanth, Piers Anthony's Immortals I thing it was called (On a Pale Horse and such) and the very first book of the Sword of Truth.

If I actually liked the man I might go and demand he had provided me with novels I had never heard of.

Heck, I only read the Lord of the Rings because of my school library. And I only heard of Moorcock and Elric when I started posting on these forums.

My father read a lot of fantasy, mostly from this Sword & Sorcery era. He was quite the nerd. Incidentally, I don't think that my father read any of the stuff that your father read. (Kinda thankful that he avoided Piers Anthony.)

I'm sorry that you disagree, but I'm not going to drop everything in my life and hunt down yet another "you must read this" Fantasy series just so I can understand why Greyhawk is worth saving.

I mean, quick and dirty Google, there are six Elric Novels? With my current schedule and life, if I didn't drop anything that is a month and a half, if I can find them all? How many Conan novels should I read? Wikipedia tells me there are about 20 of them?

The Elric books are short. These aren't the behemoth fantasy books of today. These would be classified as novellas. I believe the first book is less than 200 pages (compare GRRM's Game of Thrones, 694 pp; Robert Jordan's Eye of the World, 782 pp; etc.). Also, there is a French comic book series of Elric that has been translated, which Moorcock regards as a faithful representation, even commending what changes the comic does make.

Conan the Barbarian has a 1980s movie. In fact, the fantasy movies of the early '80s drew almost primarily from the Sword & Sorcery genre - though moreso in a Conan-ripoff way - so you can also watch a bunch of this stuff. There are several that are generally recommended. I think that either @pemerton or @Dannyalcatraz could give you good recommendations on where to start.

I would say, however, that this is less an issue about "reading to save Greyhawk," and more about reading to understand the roots of fantasy, particularly D&D-inspired fantasy. A lot of the roots are there.