Paul Farquhar
Legend
Beowulf is pretty close to S&S.
Personally, I have no need of such a product, and neither do most existing fans of the setting. They'll only get so much out of it. You seem to want to capture a new generation of fans for the setting. This is not in any way a bad idea.....but I think that the question then becomes: "how do you make Greyhawk seem as awesome to people today as it did to the early gamers?"
And that's kind of tough.
@Snarf Zagyg Okay, so I think then that what we're doing is actually ignoring those that are already passionate about Greyhawk, right? Or at least, focusing less on pleasing them and instead trying to find a way to make the setting appeal to a new audience. If that's the approach, then I think it may be possible.
I think the best approach would be to use the boxed set as a starting point for the lore and nations. Focus on some of the elements that you indicated in your OP were what makes GH different than the Realms (the quasi-post-apocalyptic vibe, the blank spots on the map, the focus on neutrality, the toned down level of fantasy, etc.). Make those things very central to the material in every way you can. Give mechanical rules for these elements so that they're a focus of play. Give suggestions about how to make the setting feel like a sword & sorcery story. Give some suggestions about how all the options in the PHB could potentially fit into this setting and maintain that feel.
This seems like a much more achievable goal to me than going with an approach that tries to please the existing fans while also appealing to new ones.
The thing is, I wouldn't be interested in buying a book that basically says "all the things you like about D&D? Sorry, you cannot enjoy them in Greyhawk". Because that's what that approach suggest. And I don't enjoy the 80s-90s D&D tropes. I barely tolerate them in my table.
I maybe a minory, but that hypothetical book is one I will not buy.
Forgotten Realms and Eberron are both kitchen sink settings, and yet there are ample reasons to play both in 5e. Greyhawk was already fairly kitchen sink, albeit in the context of 1e: it had crashed spaceships for crying out loud! So saying that Greyhawk shouldn't be a "kitchen sink" setting when we already have Forgotten Realms seems to suggest that there is not much that makes Greyhawk unique apart from being slightly less kitchen sink than Forgotten Realms. I would hope that there would be more reasons to play Greyhawk than simply "it's like FR but with less and rarer playable options!"Totally agree. The main area where I disagree with people is when they insist or argue that Greyhawk should be a "kitchen sink" setting; we don't need an alternate Forgotten Realms. There should be a reason to play to it.
I don't have the Theros setting, but I understand if they said "no D&D here" because Theros is not a D&D setting to begin with. Is a Magic setting ported to D&D. And a setting I'm not interested about, either.
I don't want a "Forgotten Realms 2: Electric Bongaloo" either. What I want is to play what I enjoy. I don't enjoy replaying Lord of the Rings in every D&D game unlike many of you here. And find the idea of anthropocentrism in fantasy highly nonsensical. I'm more of a Warcraft-kind of fantasy guy.
So, yeah, I approach Greyhawk not only as a newbie (I started in 4e, so my starting settings where the maligned 4e Realms and the Nentir Vale), but also as an skeptical. What does Greyhawk has to offer me?
My only experience with Greyhawk so far doesn't help, either. Saltmarsh left a very bad taste in my mouth (a book that encourages the DM to bully you if you play a dragonborn or a tiefling don't qualify as fun in my experience).
I wouldn't say ignore. Well, it depends on the value of ignore? I wouldn't cater to them. But I would include (perhaps) bits of fan service, and would seek to find some themes from "Old Greyhawk" to accentuate and play up.
But the best way to please people is to make a good product.
Totally agree. The main area where I disagree with people is when they insist or argue that Greyhawk should be a "kitchen sink" setting; we don't need an alternate Forgotten Realms. There should be a reason to play to it.
The thing is, I wouldn't be interested in buying a book that basically says "all the things you like about D&D? Sorry, you cannot enjoy them in Greyhawk". Because that's what that approach suggest. And I don't enjoy the 80s-90s D&D tropes. I barely tolerate them in my table.
I maybe a minory, but that hypothetical book is one I will not buy.
I think I agree. I mean, we could likely split hairs about what "kitchen sink" really means, and how Greyhawk may seem to actually fit that description in some ways......but I think that I agree in that some of what makes Greyhawk interesting are the kind of limits that are in place. It stops short of high fantasy, its civilizations are only so accomplished, etc.
However, I think one of the hardest things to reconcile if they were actually going to craft a new GH setting would be how to honor or instill these limitations while striking the right balance to a more modern approach of not limiting choices for players.
Greyhawk was already fairly kitchen sink, albeit in the context of 1e: it had crashed spaceships for crying out loud!
The man-demon reacted to the Mouser's question by slapping himself on the side of his red helmet, as though he'd forgotten something most important. He hurriedly began to explain that he traveled between worlds in a ship (or space-time engine, whatever that might mean) that tended to float just above the water—"a black ship with little lights and masts"—and that the ship had floated away from him in another fog a day ago while he'd been absorbed in taming the newly captured sea-monster. Since then the man-demon, mounted on his now-docile monster, had been fruitlessly searching for his lost vehicle.
.regarding the bold bit .... I think you might have missed a fundamental argument that has gone on. This is roughly like saying, "I can't stand playing Eberron, because unlike the rest of you, I want to play a changeling Artificer, and Eberron doesn't allow that."
No new setting in 5e has simply regurgitated the "kitchen sink" of FR, and it's offensive that Greyhawk be held to that standard when no other setting is, with people saying that they won't buy a setting that they haven't even seen unless it meets the arbitrary demand of being another default setting in 5e (when we already have one).
I may be missing some sarcasm or something....
So it's kind of funny that this far in, someone would say, "I can't stand Greyhawk because it's making me play Lord of the Rings!"
As explained before, is not that it forces you to play a human/elf/dwarf/hobb... halfling. But it encourages you to do it in the worst way: the DM has the right (abetted by the rules) to play prejudice against your PC every time they are in town, making your experience as a player in Greyhawk a negative one. Reading some posts, is something that many here will do even if the book didn't encourage it.
Fear of outsiders is not uncommon in some older modules (memorably, Ravenloft). But this isn't old school- I am advocating for a 5e Greyhawk.
And I am beside myself that WoTC has managed to publish settings without Dragonborn with nary a squeak (but it's fine because REASONS!).... and yet there is the same bizarre debate that keeps coming up?
The old school fan who doesn’t want anything updated and is still running out of the 1983 box is already not a potential customer. They’re not going to buy a 5e Greyhawk because they are not in the market for one. You make a 5e Greyhawk for those who are open to it and never concern with those who put themselves out of the demographic for it.
But you don't have to look at restrictions; there are ways that you can play up how intensely weird (gonzo) Greyhawk is as well. How many current fantasy settings include their own crashed spaceship? Portals to Alice in Wonderland? Greyhawk can be both grim and apocalyptic and profoundly bizarre; perhaps playing up the remix is a way to go.
Well, far be it for me to know how to appeal to the youth of today! I'd probably mumble something about tiktok.
But you don't have to look at restrictions; there are ways that you can play up how intensely weird (gonzo) Greyhawk is as well. How many current fantasy settings include their own crashed spaceship? Portals to Alice in Wonderland? Greyhawk can be both grim and apocalyptic and profoundly bizarre; perhaps playing up the remix is a way to go.