D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Warpiglet-7]

I personally think the appeal of Greyhawk lies in its vagaries as opposed to fully fleshed out like the realms. It was designed that way for a reason: here’s a sketched out world, make it your own.

Lean into that and it will serve a purpose and be distinct from the other current 5e settings. My envisioned 5e hardback would be heavily influenced by the style of Judge’s Guild Wilderlands of high fantasy.
chapter 1) Greyhawk flavour and themes : small kingdoms vie and clash, small points of light against the wilderness. A land of opportunity if you’ve the stomach and a quick enough blade.
include a page description of each era, highlighting that it is down to the Dm to decide whether they want to base it in original/wars/from the ashes or their own timeline.

chapter 2) fitting your character into Greyhawk

chapter 3) city of Greyhawk Gazetter.

chapter 4) factions and kingdoms of Greyhawk. (Keep it light and sketchy, only a page for each entry, just enough to give a flavour of each one)

chapter 5) The Flanaess. An updated Darlene map, with the 30 mile hexes. Included are key sites where locations are and where classic modules took place. Give a one paragraph key to each hex entry with reference number that gives a flavour of what’s there.

Chapter 6) Making Oerth yours. Explain the concept of hex crawls, talk about breaking each 30 mile hex down into smaller 5 mile chunks. (As an aside, I’d prefer 24/6 mile scale for ease but alas there’s precedence). Talk about how you can populate each hex with whatever you want. Put tables in to generate location/monster/event encounters for inspiration. Hammer home the idea is the sense of adventure, claiming the wilderness, diving into caves, tombs, strange towers for loot and glory.

chapter 7) conquering Oerth. This discusses taming the wilderness, creating your stronghold and your own fiefdom, and the struggles that may occur.

To my mind, this would highlight what is special about Greyhawk and make it a distinct and useful product within the 5e library.

I would buy that.

Perhaps you could have a book that explains how to make a campaign and it just so happens to be filled with Greyhawk as examples you could use and run with—or—-just take it as a campaign design book.

Homebrew fans could use it as a generic reference and Greyhawk fans could use it for Greyhawk.

market it as a campaign design sourcebook to expand the market but also have it function as a Greyhawk setting as well.

totally possible and it would be a must buy for new DMs...the least likely to be into Greyhawk.

 

[transmission89]

I would buy that.

Perhaps you could have a book that explains how to make a campaign and it just so happens to be filled with Greyhawk as examples you could use and run with—or—-just take it as a campaign design book.

Homebrew fans could use it as a generic reference and Greyhawk fans could use it for Greyhawk.

market it as a campaign design sourcebook to expand the market but also have it function as a Greyhawk setting as well.

totally possible and it would be a must buy for new DMs...the least likely to be into Greyhawk.

see, I was thinking the other way. Primarily a Greyhawk book, but packed with useful advice and inspiration for creating your own setting. But either way works.

I think that’s what the original Greyhawk was about really, learning how to create your own world, but with training wheels on as a lot of the hard graft is done. Look at the original folio, here’s a map, here’s some kingdoms, factions, places with evocative names, have at it! What can you make and add to it?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

see, I was thinking the other way. Primarily a Greyhawk book, but packed with useful advice and inspiration for creating your own setting. But either way works.

I think that’s what the original Greyhawk was about really, learning how to create your own world, but with training wheels on as a lot of the hard graft is done. Look at the original folio, here’s a map, here’s some kingdoms, factions, places with evocative names, have at it! What can you make and add to it?

Either way, I would buy it.

I suppose my emphasis on generic use is really more marketing than what I personally want but either way, you get double duty. Those not inherently into Greyhawk (others in the thread have emphasized that group—-the newer players) would have more incentive to purchase it.

We are in the same ballpark I think.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There are a bunch.



OK so from the folio and 83 campaign setting box you have lots of kingdoms, the biggest is the Great Kingdom which used to cover about a third to two-thirds of the continent as a medieval knights empire (maybe Charlemagnesque?) but it has fallen into decadence and now controls maybe 1/8th of the continent with all its former territories having splintered off and formed new kingdoms, some retaining good, some not. In the last periods the overking family has fallen hard into fiend worship/summoning and oppression.

One of the northern countries is flat out diabolist devil worshippers.

Another is the newly formed kingdom of Iuz, evil half-demon demigod of oppression who has been making moves and conquering things since his release from a magical prison.

Even the city of Greyhawk is fairly corrupt with Thieves Guild and Assassins Guilds being represented on the oligarchical council that appoints the mayor, and their leaders being higher level than the mayor.

There is the underlying ancient Mythos-esque Tharizdun as seen in WG4 Lost Temple of Tharizdun. And the Elder Elemental Eye and crazy lobster lady goddess worshipped by the completely not deep one fish men in Descent Into the Depths of the Earth.

The Greyhawk underdark is very weird dark fantasy, its where you get the slaving decadent drow, the oppressive depressing duergar, manipulative brain eating mind flayers, all of these were developed in Greyhawk before being adopted in FR and elsewhere, but particularly the drow show up strong in the Greyhawk modules.

There is the Demon Lord underlying the 1e Temple of Elemental Evil and the Tharizdun tie in the 3e Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Greyhawk goes full Dark Fantasy in the 2e From the Ashes setting boxed set where the timeline is advanced with all the evil power players making moves after a huge cross-continental war. Iuz manipulates the barbarian nations into invading good ones, conquers lots of kingdoms to expand his into an empire while summoning tons of fiends as evil spellcasters, humans, and humanoids flock to his banner. The Scarlet Brotherhood assassinates a bunch of leaders and figures pushing for good and conquers in the south. Some of the good nations have fallen, more are battered from the recent events. The Great Kingdom went full crazy with the overking summoning all his regional governors and turning them into a new type of death knightish undead using Hextorian rituals, most areas seceeded and are now independent city states of horror with powerful immortal supernatural rulers. The Greyhawk named wizards Circle of Eight who maintain some power balance (Mordenkainen, Tenser, etc.) get betrayed from within with many being slain and their clones being destroyed and the traitor reveals he is more powerful than thought and forms his own evil country and power base after shattering the Circle and preventing them from lots of interference in events.

Of course it is important to realize how eclectic and broad the setting is so it is perfectly reasonable to be a LG paladin knight, or to have low magic gritty medieval peasants, and there is even a focus in a series of 2e modules on silly 0-level kids adventuring.

Different people focus on the things that stand out to them. I personally avoided the kid modules like the plague. But there is definitely plenty of darkness in Greyhawk to be drawn on.

Ok, I was asking more specifically about the Cult of the Reptile God that Hussar mentioned, but that is all fine stuff to.

I think the Death Knight ritual sounds interesting but most of that isn't...

In a lot of the media I've grown up with, bad guys summoning demons is just a thing. Bad guys summoning demons that rip their way out of sacrificial victims like grotesque moths eating their way out of cocoons is "Dark". So most of your list shows that there is plenty of evil, but when I think of things getting "dark" I don't think of just evil, or even just the Evil Empire paving the way for rule over the area.

Maybe it is a disconnect in terms, or just the changes of a generation, but to be more than simply "bad things are happening" I tend to look for more specifics. Like, a Thieve's Guild and political corruption isn't dark by itself, that leading to the rulers of the city having "thieves" arrested and sold into slave labor or brothels for their own amusement is "dark".

Again, I might just use the term differently, or it might just be a disconnect of "of course things like that happen, I was just summarizing"

 

[transmission89]

Ok, I was asking more specifically about the Cult of the Reptile God that Hussar mentioned, but that is all fine stuff to.

I think the Death Knight ritual sounds interesting but most of that isn't...

In a lot of the media I've grown up with, bad guys summoning demons is just a thing. Bad guys summoning demons that rip their way out of sacrificial victims like grotesque moths eating their way out of cocoons is "Dark". So most of your list shows that there is plenty of evil, but when I think of things getting "dark" I don't think of just evil, or even just the Evil Empire paving the way for rule over the area.

Maybe it is a disconnect in terms, or just the changes of a generation, but to be more than simply "bad things are happening" I tend to look for more specifics. Like, a Thieve's Guild and political corruption isn't dark by itself, that leading to the rulers of the city having "thieves" arrested and sold into slave labor or brothels for their own amusement is "dark".

Again, I might just use the term differently, or it might just be a disconnect of "of course things like that happen, I was just summarizing"

Cult of the reptile god, people of Orlane getting brainwashed. Very invasion of the body snatchers. If your loved one disappears in the night and returns, acting like a completely different person, that’s pretty creepy and dark. Especially when all your friends do too. Leaving just you, going crazy.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

In a lot of the media I've grown up with, bad guys summoning demons is just a thing. Bad guys summoning demons that rip their way out of sacrificial victims like grotesque moths eating their way out of cocoons is "Dark".

I dunno, that reads like saying the “Saw” series is dark when it’s titillating gore turned to 11. But now it is clear that, after these many pages, definitions of dark fantasy have been irreconcilably divergent.

 

[Hussar]

Cult of the reptile god, people of Orlane getting brainwashed. Very invasion of the body snatchers. If your loved one disappears in the night and returns, acting like a completely different person, that’s pretty creepy and dark. Especially when all your friends do too. Leaving just you, going crazy.

Yes, this is pretty much it. The Naga is using its charm powers (in 1e naga charm powers were basically forever) to convert the town into worshippers. The PC's can either discover the cultists or be kidnapped by them, depending on how things play out. It's not hard playing up the horror aspects of this - although, to be fair, body horror isn't really a part of it.

But, it is seriously dark with these mostly innocent townsfolk being turned into the horde of baddies. Sure, it's a bit cliche today, but, come on, the module's like 40 years old.

In any case, I do think that Greyhawk as 5e's answer to Kingmaker is a great way to go. There's SO MUCH empty space in Greyhawk. It's fantastic for those who want a setting which can grow and evolve, rather than as a setting which you read about and build within the framework of existing canon.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Cult of the reptile god, people of Orlane getting brainwashed. Very invasion of the body snatchers. If your loved one disappears in the night and returns, acting like a completely different person, that’s pretty creepy and dark. Especially when all your friends do too. Leaving just you, going crazy.

Ah, yep, that would do it.

I dunno, that reads like saying the “Saw” series is dark when it’s titillating gore turned to 11. But now it is clear that, after these many pages, definitions of dark fantasy have been irreconcilably divergent.

Yeah, there is a fine line between "gore porn" and dark for me. It ends up being a matter of taste, intent, and emotional impact.

 

[Azzy]

There are quite a few dark elements in Greyhawk (like others have said), many of which are only touched upon in a light or passing manner (until Carl Sergeant). It would be fairly easy to play up or otherwise emphasize these darker elements.

The Scarlet Brotherhood is one of the boogeymen of the Greyhawk setting. Led by the Father of Obedience, it is a cabal of monks, assassins, and thieves. The Scarlet Sign, as the are also known, have placed spies, assassins, and sleeper agents throughout the continent to manipulate and destabilize other countries with the goal of subjugating all other peoples to their land. However, they're not just D&D's equivalent of Cobra with a dash of the Crusade-era Ḥashīshiyyīn thrown in for flavor. What really makes them interesting is that the are racial supremacists (the Suel human ethnicity) that place no value on the lives of non-Suel humans, demi-humans, humanoids, or any other sapient species and barely any for non-pure-blooded Suel to such an extent that they not only keep non-Suel as slaves, they freely perform (typically magical) experients upon non-Suel slaves and prisoners and breed and cross-breed them (often with the aid of magic) to create servitor species. The Derro (featured in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) are, in Greyhawk at least, one of such servitor species that the Suel created (though that happened in the distant past). Oh, and there's also supposed to be a secret sect within the Scarlet brotherhood that worships Tharizdun (Greyhawk's cosmic horror, name-checked in the warlock class' Great Old One patron entry), so there's also that angle. It's very easy to explore that inherent darkness of the Scarlet Brotherhood and bring it out to the foreground.

 

[haakon1]

In my mind, the editions & the setting go together. Greyhawk was the default for AD&D and 3e, Forgotten Realms for 2e & 5e. I’m a huge Greyhawk fan, and I’m fine with that - I’m still converting AD&D stuff to 3e to run it now.