I don't think that this is charitable or accurate reading of what pemerton is saying. My reading of @permeton's argument is that the difference is not about whether one set of stories are character driven or not, but, rather, it amounts to the relationship of the protagonists to external moral codes. In S&S the protagonists are imposing their own sense of morality on the world. Conan, for example, is not dancing to the beat of anyone's drum but his own. Even Elric is more or less refusing to follow the moral codes or expectations of a Melnibonéan Emperor, which is precisely why his cousin opposes him.
In epic fantasy, the characters are primarily acting in accordance with some form of moral or societal expectations. We do see this, for example, in The Illiad, The Odyssey, and Beowulf. The characters are partially measured by the degree to which they conform to social norms of moral codes. It's even often when they break those moral expectations that we see them fall or stumble (e.g., Boromir, Achilles, Odysseus, King Arthur, etc.). Aragorn is being measured against and acting in accordance to the expectations of his royal bloodline. Many of the main villains of Middle Earth (e.g., Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman) are fundamentally those that turned their back on Eru (God).
Considering the Taoism behind Earthsea or the Roman Catholicism behind LotR, I would not be so sure about that. A Wizard of Earthsea is basically a Bildungsroman in which the protagonist is only able to confront the evil of their own creation once they understand the underlying Taoist "morality of the world".
And do the moral codes and morality of the world not come into play when Odysseus angers Poseidon? Does the morality of the world not come into play when Agammenon's army spurred the wrath of Artemis, forcing him to sacrifice his daughter to appease his goddess? Or when Achilles desecrates the corpse of Hector? There are so many instances where the "morality of the world" comes into play for characters in these historical epics that it's almost fruitless to try listing them all.
Tackling the last point first, do we want to consider angering the Greek Gods as not conforming to the morality of the world? For example, in the tale of Psyche Aphrodite is angered because other people are claiming that Psyche is as beautiful as her. The Girl herself does nothing to spark the Goddess's ire, and yet she is the one to be punished.
Yes, there is a morality that these heroes might fail to meet, but the Gods also fail to meet these standards and are shown up at times.
Let us look at Aragorn again, who in actuality most people did not know he was to be a king. No one is judging him based on his royal blood, except himself. He feels he should abide by that standard, no one set the standard and then told him he had to meet it.
And, Conan is the only one of these characters I've heard enough about to say this for certain, but he does have a moral code. It is simply an older code, and if in some stories he is completely without morals, that does not mean the code is not still present. Just because no one else believes in the morality of Conan, or tells him it should be that way, does not mean that the morality does not exist.
Personally, I think WotC should just open the setting to DMs Guild and be done with it. Independents could publish the material they wanted, and if something was a runaway hit (in DM Guild terms) try a collaboration with the author for a full book product on the schedule (it worked for Keith Baker and Eberron). You’re more likely to find the next ”steward” for Greyhawk that way, someone who is (a) able to work within WotC’s legal confines and (b) someone who can generate buzz on a Greyhawk-branded product within the community.
This is the choice that makes the most sense I think. Unless they go the "Kingdoms and Warfare setting" route, this is the only other one with a good chance of working.
To be fair, the novel length Hour of the Dragon has more room for the bigger stuff, but, again, we don't have a shopping list of characters that we have in Epic Fantasy.
@Chaosmancer poo poos the number of characters in The Hobbit - but, good grief, there's a TON of characters there. Let's not forget here, that The Hobbit is meant for a pretty young reader. It was the thought of the day that you couldn't have a book that was too complex for young readers.
Now the Lord of the Rings? Good grief, not only do we have the Fellowship, we've got the Elves, The Rohan, all the schmucks in Gondor, wizards (plural), non-humanoids like the Ents, and all the background history for many of these characters. That's what makes it Epic fantasy. There's a reason LotR comes with Appendixes. Complete family trees. Proud FEET!
The primary difference between epic fantasy and S&S is scale. S&S just doesn't really concern itself (generally) with massive numbers of characters and history. It's a much small, narrower focus.
I'm not trying to "poo poo" anything, but I am saying that counting the characters cannot be enough. It can't.
I'm going to take an Urban Fantasy series off my shelf, and I'm going to try and use only the first three books of the series.
We've got the main character, her roommate, her partner, her partners wife (they have a huge crowd of children, but I don't think any of them play a big role in the first three stories), A demon, the demon's former slave who was freed, A dangerous boyfriend, a romantic interest/rival, the rival's butler, Law Enforcement Captain, Captain's Son and liason with MC, friendly werewolf, Friendly Vampire, Vampire Boss, MC's Mother, A Friendly Gargoyle, Super Powerful Demon,
That gives us what? 17 major characters over three books?
LoTR is the Nine from the Fellowship, Elrond and his daughter, the Rohan King and his daughter, Treebeard, Sauroman, Sauron, King of Gondor, his son, Wormtongue, and that's about it? Bombadill could maybe be another major character. That is about 20.
So, my Urban Fantasy book should count as Epic Fantasy, right? Except it most certainly does not. Even if I counted the other Eleven books in the series (which add more characters of course) still I doubt anyone would say this is in the Epic Fantasy Genre.
