D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Zardnaar]

I've said it before in other threads but I'll say it again. D&D is in a constant state of flux as creators have made additions to cater to the changing needs of the gaming community. The original game from 1974 was not the same game most people were playing in 1985, which was different from what we were playing in 1995, and, well, need I say more about 2000? D&D has changed and will continue to change in order to remain relevant to gamers.



While I respect Gary Gygax as one of the foundational pillars of our little hobby, I don't believe he's all that relevant to most D&D players today save as a historical curiosity. What exactly does Gygax mean to most D&D players today? His involvement in shaping the game ended in 1985 before most of them were even born, they don't use any of the rules Gygax created, the don't play the game the same as it was played in 1982, and when seeking advice on how to run a game they're not going to turn to Gygax's writings for advice. I have fond memories of Gygax's work, but I would sooner poke myself in the eye before I'd run a game using AD&D 1st edition.

I have some sympathy with the diehard Greyhawk fans. I'm still a little bitter about a lack of alignment restrictions for Paladins. But time marches on and WotC isn't worried about what little old me thinks. The diehard Greyhawk fans are a tiny base that isn't going to be catered to by WotC. Welcome to old age, folks!

I'm not expecting GH to be 100% 1983.

I would prefer a somewhat faithful adaption though with ye olde classic races only.

Until they print it can't really say one way or another as they did use the unless visiting from other world's line in Ravnica/Theros.

Diversity to me means variety so yeah making GH slightly distinct from say FR via races for example is one way.

New players seen to buy anything 5E so unless they go full derp I don't think it matters to much one way or another.

 

[Wishbone]

While I respect Gary Gygax as one of the foundational pillars of our little hobby, I don't believe he's all that relevant to most D&D players today save as a historical curiosity. What exactly does Gygax mean to most D&D players today? His involvement in shaping the game ended in 1985 before most of them were even born, they don't use any of the rules Gygax created, the don't play the game the same as it was played in 1982, and when seeking advice on how to run a game they're not going to turn to Gygax's writings for advice. I have fond memories of Gygax's work, but I would sooner poke myself in the eye before I'd run a game using AD&D 1st edition.

The more people talk about Gygax the more he sounds like the Stan Lee of D&D who didn't stay in the public consciousness by making movie cameos.

 

[Remathilis]

Why do most people assume that GH is low magic?

Enworld's population has, for as long as I can remember, had a fetish for low-magic, grim-and-gritty play that mostly stems from formative memories of magic-users with one spell slot and 1d4 HP. Greyhawk, being the best representative setting for those memories, has absorbed a lot of that "LMGnG" tropes despite, as you point out, GH was indistinguishable from generic D&D (which was the same system FR used most of the time).

 

[Zardnaar]

Enworld's population has, for as long as I can remember, had a fetish for low-magic, grim-and-gritty play that mostly stems from formative memories of magic-users with one spell slot and 1d4 HP. Greyhawk, being the best representative setting for those memories, has absorbed a lot of that "LMGnG" tropes despite, as you point out, GH was indistinguishable from generic D&D (which was the same system FR used most of the time).

Lower level NPCs as well.

Dragon magazine avatars were kinda puny compared to say FR ones in Faith's and Magic.

Greyhawk was more 14th century ye olde medieval not Europe, FR more renaissance fair.
Old D&D didn't have plate armor until UA, 2E in a fire book or the rules cyclopedia or one of the CM parts of BECMI.

Alot of modern D&Disms stem from 2E at least first time in a core book anyway.

Eg level 1-20, basic skill system, full plate.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Enworld's population has, for as long as I can remember, had a fetish for low-magic, grim-and-gritty play that mostly stems from formative memories of magic-users with one spell slot and 1d4 HP. Greyhawk, being the best representative setting for those memories, has absorbed a lot of that "LMGnG" tropes despite, as you point out, GH was indistinguishable from generic D&D (which was the same system FR used most of the time).

Well, to be fair-

Greyhawk is most closely associated with OD&D and "early" AD&D (1e). It was the "Gygax home setting" for OD&D, as well as the default setting for the early modules -- even when they were played at GenCon prior to 1e -- as well as the default setting for AD&D prior to 1985 (per the modules).

Forgotten Realms is associated with post-UA, post-Gygax 1e and (mostly) 2e in terms of the rulesets.

Many people (including me) would say that these are not the same systems and gestalts, although they are compatible.

 

[Remathilis]

Lower level NPCs as well.

Dragon magazine avatars were kinda puny compared to say FR ones in Faith's and Magic.

I think that is a big part of FR's distinction; NPCs of epic power are just more active. GH are more hands-off. There were still powerful beings, but they tended to be villains or not willing to help out typical adventures, a few exceptions notwithstanding.

But anyone who things GH is about limited demihumans, spell-less rangers or enhanced disease rules is projecting thier desires onto Greyhawk rather than trying to represent what the setting was actually like.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, to be fair-

Greyhawk is most closely associated with OD&D and "early" AD&D (1e). It was the "Gygax home setting" for OD&D, as well as the default setting for the early modules -- even when they were played at GenCon prior to 1e -- as well as the default setting for AD&D prior to 1985 (per the modules).

Forgotten Realms is associated with post-UA, post-Gygax 1e and (mostly) 2e in terms of the rulesets.

Many people (including me) would say that these are not the same systems and gestalts, although they are compatible.

But for most of a typical game, a GH and FR PC used the same rules, spells, and mechanics. There was nothing "grittier or lower magic" about one setting or the other, assuming the same edition of rules and the later excesses of 2e kept in check. The difference was tonal, not mechanical.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But for most of a typical game, a GH and FR PC used the same rules, spells, and mechanics. There was nothing "grittier or lower magic" about one setting or the other, assuming the same edition of rules and the later excesses of 2e kept in check. The difference was tonal, not mechanical.

As I acknowledged before, the best way to kill a possible Greyhawk project would be to give it to someone who is just like, "Whatever man, I don't know much about Greyhawk. It's just the Forgotten Realms, right?"

That probably wouldn't end well.

 

[Remathilis]

As I acknowledged before, the best way to kill a possible Greyhawk project would be to give it to someone who is just like, "Whatever man, I don't know much about Greyhawk. It's just the Forgotten Realms, right?"

That probably wouldn't end well.

Eh. My point is you can emphasize difference without re-wrtiting the game rules. Faerun, Eberron and Wildemount all use the races and classes of the PHB and I don't feel they share much in common when it comes to tone or feel.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Eh. My point is you can emphasize difference without re-wrtiting the game rules. Faerun, Eberron and Wildemount all use the races and classes of the PHB and I don't feel they share much in common when it comes to tone or feel.

Eberron adds races and classes, and has a completely different setting.
Wildemount adds races and reprints (makes official) twelve races that were supplemental.
Theros restricts choices.

Settings add and subtract material all the time.

If you just went generic 5e D&D, play Forgotten Realms. That's the default.