D&D 5E (2014) For the Record: Mearls on Warlords (ca. 2013)

[mellored]

So far, the warlord is good at giving everyone else's toys and emulating them for everyone else. High level rogue needs to scout? The thieflord takes the party with him. Sorcerer twinning attack spells the arcanelord let's the druid, wizard, and warlock do that too.

If a warlord can emulate those abilities for the party without being those classes, isn't having a party with a ragelord, an arcanelord, a thieflord, and a inspiringlord strictly better than a party with a barbarian, a sorcerer, a rogue, and a bard? I mean, the former gives Stealth, Rage, metamagic and healing to everyone, while the latter is stuck to one character rages, one sneaks, etc...

Wheren't you just complaining that there was not enough to fill a class?
Now your complaining that they have too much?

Obviously there is a middle ground.

i.e.
rogue can get +17, with min roll of 10, and advantage (at the cost of a sub-class)
ranger gives +10 bonus to everyone, prevents magical tracking, at the cost of a spell slot.

So a theiflord might have min roll of 5 (int?), gives +6 (proficiency?) (at the cost of a sub-class).


Numbers can be tweaked. Balance is achievable.


I actually quite like "allies cannot roll below your Int modifier on skill checks". Nice party wide bonus that's not too strong, without making people better then they could normally be.

 

[Minigiant]

So far, the warlord is good at giving everyone else's toys and emulating them for everyone else. High level rogue needs to scout? The thieflord takes the party with him. Sorcerer twinning attack spells the arcanelord let's the druid, wizard, and warlock do that too.

If a warlord can emulate those abilities for the party without being those classes, isn't having a party with a ragelord, an arcanelord, a thieflord, and a inspiringlord strictly better than a party with a barbarian, a sorcerer, a rogue, and a bard? I mean, the former gives Stealth, Rage, metamagic and healing to everyone, while the latter is stuck to one character rages, one sneaks, etc...

Well the warlord only makes you serviceable.

A prince of thieves helps everyone sneak but none of get Cunning action nor Vanish and don't attempt hard check else you'll fail.

 

[mellored]

I actually quite like "allies cannot roll below your Int modifier on skill checks". Nice party wide bonus that's not too strong, without making people better then they could normally be.

Math note:

Min 5 on a d20, is equivalent to +0.5.
And that assumes you bump Int.

Min 3 on a d20 is worth +0.15


Small enough that it can reasonably apply to all skill checks.

Edit: With disadvantage...
min 5 is worth +0.93
still small enough.

 

[Remathilis]

Wheren't you just complaining that there was not enough to fill a class?
Now your complaining that they have too much?

Obviously there is a middle ground.

i.e.
rogue can get +17, with min roll of 10, and advantage (at the cost of a sub-class)
ranger gives +10 bonus to everyone, prevents magical tracking, at the cost of a spell slot.

So a theiflord might have min roll of 5 (int?), gives +6 (proficiency?) (at the cost of a sub-class).


Numbers can be tweaked. Balance is achievable.


I actually quite like "allies cannot roll below your Int modifier on skill checks". Nice party wide bonus that's not too strong, without making people better then they could normally be.

Giving them everyone else's abilities is NOT what I had in mind!

It sits wrong with me that a class can just make anyone emulate another class. Especially since the actual rogue isn't getting benefit from the thieflord.

So now the warlord is a class that breaks bounded accuracy, wrecks the action economy, erodes niche protection, and inspires endless debates on the nature of hp. Not a good record to stand on.

 

[Bawylie]

Nah, we're just looking for ways to fulfill (or mechanically model) the base functions.

The warlord must:
A) Mitigate Damage
B) Improve allies' performance in combat
C) Be a versatile combatant himself.

My write up does pretty well at that, minor quibbles over details aside.

 

[mellored]

Giving them everyone else's abilities is NOT what I had in mind!

You mean min 5 on rolls?


That's less the bless.
Less the pass without a trace.
Less then a help action.

And who else has that ability?

It sits wrong with me that a class can just make anyone emulate another class. Especially since the actual rogue isn't getting benefit from the thieflord.

Why can't he boost a rogue?
Ranger's can.

So now the warlord is a class that breaks bounded accuracy, wrecks the action economy, erodes niche protection, and inspires endless debates on the nature of hp. Not a good record to stand on.

ALL classes can boost accuracy with the help action. (or hold person, fairy fire, prone, ect...)
ALL classes can mess with action economy. (haste, action surge, cunning action, flurry of blows, ect...)
ALL classes (except fighter or rogue) can boost stealth of someone else. (darkness, invisibility, pass without a trace, bless, foresight)
ALL classes do damage, and can inspire debate over the nature of HP. (i stabbed you with a dagger 10 times...)
ALL classes have some form of damage reduction or healing. (rage, false life, cure wounds, evasion, ect...)


So i'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Minigiant]

BAND OF THIEVES
At the Xth level, you and your allies become more roguish. Whenever you or an ally within 30ft that can see you makes a Dexterity (Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth) check, you all can treat a d20 roll which is lower than 5 + your Intelligence modifier as 5 + your Intelligence modifier.

INCITE FURY
At the Xth level, you can inspire fury in others. As a bonus action, you can every willing ally within 30 feet of you gain Reckless for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points. Once you use this class feature, you cannot use it again until you take a long rest.

 

[Remathilis]

BAND OF THIEVES
At the Xth level, you and your allies become more roguish. Whenever you or an ally within 30ft that can see you makes a Dexterity (Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth) check, they can treat a d20 roll which is lower than 5 + your Intelligence modifier as 5 + your Intelligence modifier.

INCITE FURY
At the Xth level, you can inspire fury in others. As a bonus action, you can every willing ally within 30 feet of you gain Reckless for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points.

DM: OK, since the cleric died last game, Bob rolled up a thieflord.
Bob: hey guys.
[Introductions ensue]
DM: you creep into the giant's steading. It's dark and you hear footsteps.
Tim: I'll have my rogue sneak up ahead. I have expertise in Stealth, so I can't fail against these slow-witted brutes!
Bob: actually, my subclass let's us ALL sneak up. I put my high score in int, so everyone can't roll less than a 9 before modifers. Additionally, I use my bolster skill power to give everyone advantage on one skill for an hour. Nobody has a dex penalty, right?
Group: that's amazing! Tim, why can't your rogue do that?
Tim: well, all my powers make ME a good scout...
Group: well that's selfish. Now we all can sneak up on the giants and gain surprise.
Tim: well I can still pick locks...
Bob: actually, I took the criminal background...
Group: Tim, why don't you retire your rogue since he's not useful anymore and roll up a ragelord. Then we can get bonuses to damage too!
Tim...

 

[mellored]

DM: OK, since the cleric died last game, Bob rolled up a thieflord druid.
Bob: hey guys.
[Introductions ensue]
DM: you creep into the giant's steading. It's dark and you hear footsteps.
Tim: I'll have my rogue sneak up ahead. I have expertise in Stealth, so I can't fail against these slow-witted brutes!
Bob: actually, my subclass spell let's us ALL sneak up. I put my high score in int, so everyone can't roll less than a 9 10 before modifers.

DM: You enter the beholder's lair.
Bob: I can't boost everyone that high, best let Tim sneak up. He's the master sneak.

 

[Minigiant]

DM: OK, since the cleric died last game, Bob rolled up a thieflord.
Bob: hey guys.
[Introductions ensue]
DM: you creep into the giant's steading. It's dark and you hear footsteps.
Tim: I'll have my rogue sneak up ahead. I have expertise in Stealth, so I can't fail against these slow-witted brutes!
Bob: actually, my subclass let's us ALL sneak up. I put my high score in int, so everyone can't roll less than a 9 before modifers. Additionally, I use my bolster skill power to give everyone advantage on one skill for an hour. Nobody has a dex penalty, right?
Group: that's amazing! Tim, why can't your rogue do that?
Tim: well, all my powers make ME a good scout...
Group: well that's selfish. Now we all can sneak up on the giants and gain surprise.
Tim: well I can still pick locks...
Bob: actually, I took the criminal background...
Group: Tim, why don't you retire your rogue since he's not useful anymore and roll up a ragelord. Then we can get bonuses to damage too!
Tim...

DM: Okay. You snuck past to dumb ogres and have spotted their master. It seem to be a ogre priestess of the God of Earth.
Group: Good thing we have Bob.
Bob: Umm.. guys. I think we oughta let Tim handle this. I can go with him but I can't buff the rest of your guys checks. You won't roll less than 10 but you most likely won't roll high enough to sneak past a priestess even with my skills.
Tim: Yeah. Just cover our escape and yell if she leaves this room.
Jenny: I could cast...
Bob: Save your spells. Tim and I will double sneak attack the guards in the next room. He'll pick the chest and we'll sneak back. Then we all sneak back outside past the brutes. If things go south, at least Tim and I aren't far from you.