D&D 5E (2014) For the Record: Mearls on Warlords (ca. 2013)

[Remathilis]

tactical = lazier lord, int based bonuses to-hit
inpiring = bard, cha bonus to (T)HP
bravada = barbarian, reckless attack, enemies get advantage against you, allies get advanatge against enemies.
resouceful = variety, int or cha bonuses your choice.
insight = forget... wis bonus to...?
skirmishing = ranger, bow and movement granting

Again, 4e sub-classes where pretty shallow, only 1 feature, and access to few feats (which where much smaller in 4e).
Like a dragon sorcerer getting +cha to fire damage, and that's it.

Doesn't seem a lot to hang your hat on as far a subclasses, especially since most ended up "give X bonus from y stat to z roll". Hell, you could put all six into one and nobody would be able to tell which came from which. Not much as far as play-changing archetypes, like how different a champion, battlemaster, or ek play.

To be honest, without resorting to 4e like discrete maneuvers, it don't see a lot for a warlord to do. Give a bonus to a roll or defense, grant extra HP, grant extra actions, or perform a martial maneuver like disarm. That's not much for a base class, not when a battlemaster or valor bard can do most of that. It's too thin a skeleton to hang a whole class.

 

[mellored]

Doesn't seem a lot to hang your hat on as far a subclasses, especially since most ended up "give X bonus from y stat to z roll". Hell, you could put all six into one and nobody would be able to tell which came from which.

Agreed. You could simply make this maneuver give Int, that one has Cha, this one is Wis, this one requires you to hit someone.

Pick and choose.

Not much as far as play-changing archetypes, like how different a champion, battlemaster, or ek play.

I could see...

fighter/barbarian-lord (melee, bonuses for frontal assault, lead the charge),
ranger/rogue-lord (ranged, bonuses for stealth assault, hit-and run tactics)
bard/medic/diplomancer-lord (lazy, healing, diplomatic, and pacifist options).

a battlemaster or valor bard can do most of that.

They can, to a limited degree. Like an eldrich knight can cast spells to a limited degree. We a full wizard with level 9 spells, not a 1/3 wizard who still mainly relies on weapons based DPR.

 

[Minigiant]

looks like we're actually coming to some kind of agreement.
and i do agree, that the 4e warlord sub-classes can be combined (4e sub-classes where pretty shallow), as well that we should look at other games, like the starwars noble.

The issue with the warlord is you can't direct convert it.
4e and 5e are different in focus. Noncombat was there in 4e but it was very general. And positioning isn't that big in 5e.

The key is to expand on the flavor 4e didn't.

A prince of thieves warlord that helps everyone use stealth.

An archer lord that boosts the party's ranged attacks.

A arcane battemaster that helps allies cast spells and holds concentration for them.

A knight commander who is a hope of hope that grants bonuses when alive.

As someone who never got farther than the PH, what is the difference? Why would I pick a tactical over a resourceful? What is different, both mechanical and rp/in-world would be nice.

Mechanical: Tactical is an Intelligence based attack enabler. Resourceful uses Intelligence and Charisma to beat a jack of all warlords.

Conceptual: The tactlord is a tactical setup man who helps you do better. The reslord uses whatever is available: a heal, a buff, a debuff

RP: The taclord is your chess master. This is your brilliant general of men. The resourceful warlord is your MacGuyver. Better improvised actions and turning your party into the A-Team.

 

[mellored]

A arcane battemaster that helps allies cast spells and holds concentration for them.

Nice, i didn't think of that one.

 

[Remathilis]

They can, to a limited degree. Like an eldrich knight can cast spells to a limited degree. We a full wizard with level 9 spells, not a 1/3 wizard who still mainly relies on weapons based DPR.

I keep seeing the ek/wizard comparison. What is a warlord doing that blows the battlemaster out of the water like a wizards 9th level magic blows an ek's 5th out of the water?

In essence, what is a high level warlord doing that a high level battlemaster isn't?

 

[Remathilis]

fighter/barbarian-lord (melee, bonuses for frontal assault, lead the charge),
ranger/rogue-lord (ranged, bonuses for stealth assault, hit-and run tactics)
bard/medic/diplomancer-lord (lazy, healing, diplomatic, and pacifist options).

.
A prince of thieves warlord that helps everyone use stealth.

An archer lord that boosts the party's ranged attacks.

A arcane battemaster that helps allies cast spells and holds concentration for them.

A knight commander who is a hope of hope that grants bonuses when alive.

Question: why can't those things be done by barbarians, rangers, bards, rogues, arcane casters, or paladins? Why is their training not good enough? These sound more like a series of subclasses, feats, or some multiclassing.

 

[mellored]

I keep seeing the ek/wizard comparison. What is a warlord doing that blows the battlemaster out of the water like a wizards 9th level magic blows an ek's 5th out of the water?

In essence, what is a high level warlord doing that a high level battlemaster isn't?

Similar to how a wizard levels up. More often (spells slots), bigger (burning hands-> fireball -> meteor swarm), and more variety (teleport, wall of X).


Translates to...

More: At-will maneuvers / Multiple maneuvers in a turn.
Bigger: Maneuvers affect more then 1 person. A high level wizard can meteor swarm an army. A high level battlebard can rally an army.
Variety: Can concentrate for an ally, stealth bonus, allies can avoid each other's AoE's, organize a shield wall, and all the other good ideas that have been spouted.

Question: why can't those things be done by barbarians, rangers, bards, rogues, arcane casters, or paladins? Why is their training not good enough? These sound more like a series of subclasses, feats, or some multiclassing.

No way to stuff that into a sub-class without making it OP. It needs it's own class for that much power.

Sure, other classes can dip in, take a feat, or a sub-class. The same way you can get spells with magic initiate, or maneuvers with martial adept. But you don't give meteor swarm to barbarians, or rally an army to a fighter.
To be a full powered wizard, you need a full class.
And to be a full powered battlebard, you need a full class.

 

[Minigiant]

I keep seeing the ek/wizard comparison. What is a warlord doing that blows the battlemaster out of the water like a wizards 9th level magic blows an ek's 5th out of the water?

In essence, what is a high level warlord doing that a high level battlemaster isn't?

If you ask me...

The Prince of Thieves lets every in the party roll Stealth with Reliable Talent (the heavy armor fight can't roll lower than his Into score) and everyone nearby gets sneak attack.

The bravura leader gives the warriors in the party a mini-rage and lets party members gamble on ability checks.

The arcane battmaster hands out metamagic (magic maneuvers) and can hold concentration for allies (or lets them reroll it)

But you can't directly convert the 4e warlord to 5e. You have to find its spirit then make the 5e version of that concept.

 

[mellored]

If you ask me...

The Prince of Thieves lets every in the party roll Stealth with Reliable Talent (the heavy armor fight can't roll lower than his Into score) and everyone nearby gets sneak attack.

The bravura leader gives the warriors in the party a mini-rage and lets party members gamble on ability checks.

The arcane battmaster hands out metamagic (magic maneuvers) and can hold concentration for allies (or lets them reroll it)

But you can't directly convert the 4e warlord to 5e. You have to find its spirit then make the 5e version of that concept.

I would also add a beastmaster. Who comes with his own pet.

Err... commoner-master (?). Who comes with his own followers. "Spend 24 hours in a city or other populated area and you can recruit commoners to fight for you". Though better balanced then the current one.

 

[Remathilis]

So far, the warlord is good at giving everyone else's toys and emulating them for everyone else. High level rogue needs to scout? The thieflord takes the party with him. Sorcerer twinning attack spells the arcanelord let's the druid, wizard, and warlock do that too.

If a warlord can emulate those abilities for the party without being those classes, isn't having a party with a ragelord, an arcanelord, a thieflord, and a inspiringlord strictly better than a party with a barbarian, a sorcerer, a rogue, and a bard? I mean, the former gives Stealth, Rage, metamagic and healing to everyone, while the latter is stuck to one character rages, one sneaks, etc...