For those who don't like "shouting healthy" powers

[Mallus]

PCs shouldn't be able to self heal, PCs should rely on external forces (like divine intervention) for healing. IMO.

How do you feel about healing coming from (relatively) dirt-cheap potions and wands, ie the default 3e assumption?

3e essentially made the "cost" of healing trivial (to anything other than very low-level PCs).

4e went further, reducing the cost of long-term healing to zero (by getting rid of long term healing completely).

The interesting thing for me, is 4e's approach is more in line with depictions of the heroic in popular media than 3e's. The likes of John Carter and John McClane could be knocked around or knocked out, but they'd be fine the next scene/day. But you never see them guzzling healing elixirs/antibiotics/taking hit off the healing pipe (wand of CLW).

 

[fba827]

admittedly i did not read all this thread, just the OP and scanned a couple of the responses. So apologies if i'm missing some point brought up elsewhere already.

It sounds like less of an issue with the death-dyiing rules and more like you're issue would be resolved if you were able to tweak nonmagical healing.
That being the case, perhaps house rule it that second winds are really from a potion and then just don't allow martial leader classes (or replace their inspiring word and other healings with healing word and other divine equivalents, and say that they are partially magical ) or just replace inspiring word with a defender's aura or something to make them more defender-y.... though by that point, simply not allowing martial leaders (i.e. warlord) would be your simplest solution along with reflavoring what exactly is going on with second wind.

 

[the Jester]

What do you think? Does this work at all?

Not for me. I don't want a less lethal game. Your proposal isn't a fix allowing the dm to set the dial; it's very much aimed at one playstyle.

In my campaign, adventuring is a high-lethality profession. It's hard enough to die in 4e.

 

[Keenberg]

Except that any creature behind a bush can come up and do a heal check, regardless of training, and have a fair chance of getting a PC conscious again. Any creature can do the equivalent of shouting a PC awake (just not from range).

So what is wrong with that? The Warlord's Inspiring Word exploit is therefore a specialty of the class that enables it to heal the dying (or non-dying) from range. It's a supernatural force. Trying to reason it out is like trying to scientifically prove God's existence. There, you have faith, here, you have a suspension of disbelief.

 

[Keenberg]

In my terms, Second Wind shouldn't exist in the game system.

It's self healing for all classes and shouldn't exist. It's a mmorpg derivative and no matter how eloquent a narrative is about what it does, it's still dumb and shouldn't be part of the game system. PCs shouldn't be able to self heal, PCs should rely on external forces (like divine intervention) for healing. IMO.

So before MMO's, there was no precedent for self-healing? No one in a game, movie, or real life ever shook off a debilitating condition, focused their mind, or helped themselves continue on when things look their bleakest?

Ever heard of "catching your second wind" when you're running a marathon? Extend that concept to the game. Damage doesn't have to be physical. It can represent a character/monster being overwhelmed by the ferocity of the oncoming attack, so their defences dcrop until that final blow or two puts them down. It can represent anything. Be creative!

 

[KarinsDad]

The interesting thing for me, is 4e's approach is more in line with depictions of the heroic in popular media than 3e's. The likes of John Carter and John McClane could be knocked around or knocked out, but they'd be fine the next scene/day. But you never see them guzzling healing elixirs/antibiotics/taking hit off the healing pipe (wand of CLW).

I'm not playing other popular medias and they shouldn't pollute my media. Again, IMO.

 

[KarinsDad]

As I say, hit points aren't about damage - they are a magical force field and a strictly gamist construct.

Except that the terminology in the game is attack, damage, and healing.

Not force field.

This is a spin on the concept to correlate to the game mechanic being used. The narrative and the game terms are attack, damage, and healing and always have been. But since the healing mechanic no longer fits that, it's in vogue now to change the narrative to luck, endurance, and a wide variety of other terms that fit the mechanic.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Not for me. I don't want a less lethal game. Your proposal isn't a fix allowing the dm to set the dial; it's very much aimed at one playstyle.

Well, no... that's why I posted it here rather than in New Horizons. It wasn't meant to be a dial, but rather just an idea to possibly mechanically solve the 'if hit points aren't real injury how come you start taking death saves?' conundrum.

You're absolutely right in this does make the game less lethal... but only by a single attack (so it isn't as bad as it probably could be.) But if you're looking for more lethality, then my ideas more definitely aren't trying to solve that issue.

 

[Destil]

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] There are games where damage is damage. D&D is not and has never been one of them. GURPS and Rolemaster, sure. But hit points without shock penalties simply aren't part of this. (Not to say that you can't butcher the sacred cow of hit points - just that it's a sacred cow).

Actually, 4E has shock limits and actual damage. They're called hit points and healing surges.

Think of surges as damage. Think of your HP as a shock threshold. It works just fine.

A PC with 10 surges (6 + full HP) has 10 HP. Most attacks from a reasonable threat take half to 2 hit points away. If he looses more than 4 HP in an encounter he's out down without some help, though with a short rest he can get back on his feet. But take more than 10 damage in a day and he's basically out for the count, there's no healing. After some time to recover he can come back, but for now he's done.

Yeah, if you want something gritty where it takes weeks to heal then you need alternate surge recovery rules. But that's a very small part of the game and easy enough to do if that's what you want.

The other nice thing that happens with this mindset is that characters never gain HP unless they increase Con. It solidifies the idea that you learn to lessen blows that do get through, rather than become tougher unless you're a very special case.

 

[Destil]

Except that the terminology in the game is attack, damage, and healing.

Not force field.

This is a spin on the concept to correlate to the game mechanic being used. The narrative and the game terms are attack, damage, and healing and always have been. But since the healing mechanic no longer fits that, it's in vogue now to change the narrative to luck, endurance, and a wide variety of other terms that fit the mechanic.

What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. A 10th-level fighter who has taken 50 points of damage is not as badly hurt as a 10th-level wizard who has taken that much damage. Indeed, unless the wizard has a high Constitution score, she’s probably dead or dying, while the fighter is battered but otherwise doing fine. Why the difference? Partly because the fighter is better at rolling with the punches, protecting vital areas, and dodging just enough that a blow that would be fatal only wounds him. Partly because he’s tough as nails. He can take damage that would drop a horse and still swing his sword with deadly effect. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn’t have the favor of some higher power.

A 10th-level fighter who has taken 50 points of damage may be about as physically hurt as a 10th-level wizard who has taken 30 points of damage, the 1st-level fighter who has taken 5 points of damage, or the 1st-level wizard who has taken 3. Details at this level, however, don’t affect how the dice roll. When picturing a scene, just remember that 50 points of damage means different things to different people.

(emphasis mine)

Right, this bit must have was added just to make 4E healing/math work.

...

Except, no. That's quote's Monte Cook in the 3E DMG. Long before max HP ever really related to 'healing' powers.