For those who don't like "shouting healthy" powers

[KarinsDad]

(emphasis mine)

Right, this bit must have was added just to make 4E healing/math work.

...

Except, no. That's quote's Monte Cook in the 3E DMG. Long before max HP ever really related to 'healing' powers.

Hit points have always been the ability to both take physical punishment and to turn a greater blow into a lesser blow.

But in 4E, that is no longer the case. That's what I object to. Now, it's also skill, luck, and resolve as well because if you make it these additional elements, then shouting out words of courage and determination via Inspiring Word is a little less nonsensical. But, it can still be nonsensical.

If the Warlord shouts at the unconscious PC, he is restoring luck and resolve.

If the Warlord doesn't shout and nobody helps the unconscious PC, then the PC will probably bleed out and die.

Sorry, but it's just silly that the PC is dying, but the Warlord shouts and the PC is no longer dying. I'm glad it works for you and other people. But, it doesn't work for everyone (especially some of us that enjoy the fluff aspect of the combat powers) because it's not hit points anymore. In fact, this thread was written and we are discussing it here because it doesn't make sense to everyone.


I would have no problem if Inspiring Word handed out temporary hit points. That way, it isn't healing, but it is helping. To me, this is a better solution than the one proposed by the OP. That makes sense for someone shouting out encouragement.

But, I don't like it being healing. And, I've seen two players whose backgrounds said that their Warlord worships a deity and gets Inspiring Word from the deity. I wasn't DM in either of those two cases and it wasn't my PCs. In fact, we've had a grand total of two Warlords in our home game and both players did it. Some people just don't like it and no amount of rationale will make it all better. It's nonsensical.

 

[KarinsDad]

Dup post.

 

[Mallus]

I'm not playing other popular medias and they shouldn't pollute my media.

Pollute? D&D has always been influenced by genre media. You realize that, right? It's cool to not like certain things, but in a game that begs, borrows, and steals --proudly, intentionally, and even footnoted-ly, cf. AD&D Appendix N.-- from many different kinds of adventure fiction, "pollute" is a weird choice of words. The game is *based* on "other, popular, (nerdy) media".

Anyway, let's not get sidetracked by this. Will you answer my question -- what do you think of 3e making healing so cheap? In practice, 3e played the same as 4e re: healing. The party was healed to max after every encounter.

 

[KarinsDad]

what do you think of 3e making healing so cheap? In practice, 3e played the same as 4e re: healing. The party was healed to max after every encounter.

I think the 3E method was better in one regard. The PCs could fight a longer day with more encounters, especially if the spell casters had wands or staves.

It's a bit annoying as a player when I design my 4E PC to be both offensive and defensive, and hence, my PC uses healing surges at a 1 to 2 rate per encounter on average, and some other player ignores defenses and consistently ends up using 3 to 4 healing surges per encounter. In 3 encounters, that PC is mostly done and then the players start attempting to force options like Comrade's Succor down everyone's throats.

The entire healing surge concept is not well though out. It works, but it has some drawbacks.


As can be seen by PathFinder, there are healing solutions that do not use healing surges, but are also not the bag of healing potions of 3.5.

One potential solution to the healing surge mechanic is to give Leader classes stronger short rest healing. As an example, every PC who wants to is totally healed up, but only uses one healing surge to do so.

Another option is to double the number of core class healing surges (additional surges from CON or feats are not doubled). I find it a bit lame that they have feats like Durable anyway. The feat has no excitement to it at all. It's not cool. It's just a hole filler.

I've heard here on the boards that some groups run out of Daily powers before they ever run out of healing surges. That has not been my experience on average. The groups I play in almost always run out of healing surges before they run out of Daily powers, especially once they get past mid-heroic. This is especially true with the increased monster damage from last year.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hit points have always been the ability to both take physical punishment and to turn a greater blow into a lesser blow.

But in 4E, that is no longer the case. That's what I object to. Now, it's also skill, luck, and resolve as well because if you make it these additional elements, then shouting out words of courage and determination via Inspiring Word is a little less nonsensical. But, it can still be nonsensical.

So. Let me get this straight. They changed a purely gamist system in which the body of a mid level fighter does not react at all to a critical hit from an orc except to say "Better not take another of those" to one with measures of shock and stamina which is consistent and makes sense most of the time. And your objection is that they changed a strictly gamist mechanic into one with some measure of simulationism? And that the new version of the mechanic is not 100% compatable with your attemots to justify raw gamism?

If the Warlord doesn't shout and nobody helps the unconscious PC, then the PC will probably bleed out and die.

Sorry, but it's just silly that the PC is dying, but the Warlord shouts and the PC is no longer dying.

That is a theoretical possibility. I think I have once in all my time playing D&D seen someone die from three failed death saves. Maybe twice.

In fact, this thread was written and we are discussing it here because it doesn't make sense to everyone.

Hit points do not make sense to everyone. In fact Gary Gygax put them in as a purely gamist construct. Healing surges are simply badly named. Would you have the same issue if Healing Surges were renamed "Resilience"? Becaus that's what both the number of surges and the surge value measures.

I would have no problem if Inspiring Word handed out temporary hit points. That way, it isn't healing, but it is helping. To me, this is a better solution than the one proposed by the OP. That makes sense for someone shouting out encouragement.

Almost the reverse. Allowing someone to spend a healing surge isn't actually healing them. The measure of how damaged you are is how many healing surges you are down as well as the hit points. Real genuine healing isn't Inspiring Word or even Healing Word. The damage is still there and the debt is still due. It's Cure Light Wounds. Genuine magical healing is surgeless. Yes, this does mean you need to rethink what a hit point is. But that's because a hit point has never been a coherent measure of anything.

 

[Destil]

Yeah, I'll say it again: Call healing surges (including counting the 4 you start with for full HP) 'hit points'. Call hit points 'shock threshold'.

Works just fine.

 

[KarinsDad]

But that's because a hit point has never been a coherent measure of anything.

It was to some of us. Now, not so much.

 

[molepunch]

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] not to antagonize your stance but I think I remember reading in the 4E rulebook that hit points also measures luck and resolve? It isn't purely a physical concept. Will an official statement satisfy you (no sarcasm)?

Hit points isn't named Health Points or Wound Points for a reason. I'm sorry if you feel upset that Warlords destroy your immersion but please don't presume that players who don't mind Warlords don't care about fluff. I don't have any trouble seeing HP as stamina, luck, destiny, skill, and health combined and I care about fluff. Perhaps you only care for your own fluff and not just any fluff? Well you can always ban non-magic leader classes in your games?

I like the OP's idea!