Forced Movement trhough one's ally's space

[Shin Okada]

From Compendium

Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.

A character of monster can move through one's ally's space but cannot end it's movement there.

So, I assume that one can force-move an opponent through that opponent's ally's space unless that space is the destination of that movement.

Am I right about it?

 

[Mengu]

I believe that is correct, and has been my interpretation, but I've had some DM's object or look at me like I just assaulted their first born, so I tend to ask.

 

[keterys]

Of course, at any time its ally may declare it is not an ally for that purpose so... if the creature doesn't want to be forced through an ally, it won't be.

 

[Shin Okada]

Of course, at any time its ally may declare it is not an ally for that purpose so... if the creature doesn't want to be forced through an ally, it won't be.

Hmm, that is debatable I guess. Isn't that opens a big can of worms?

 

[Kingreaper]

Of course, at any time its ally may declare it is not an ally for that purpose so... if the creature doesn't want to be forced through an ally, it won't be.

With Dark Sun defiling specifically referring to "unwilling allies" I think that's become more clearly not RAI.

 

[Saeviomagy]

With Dark Sun defiling specifically referring to "unwilling allies" I think that's become more clearly not RAI.

"PHB, page 4, Target"
"When a power's target entry specifies that it affects you and one ofr more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power's effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets."

There's not a lot of interpretation to be done there. The fact that DS creates specifies a group that doesn't exist (the set of targets who are both unwilling and an ally is zero) doesn't really change that.

 

[Kingreaper]

"PHB, page 4, Target"
"When a power's target entry specifies that it affects you and one ofr more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power's effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets."

There's not a lot of interpretation to be done there. The fact that DS creates specifies a group that doesn't exist (the set of targets who are both unwilling and an ally is zero) doesn't really change that.

That deals only with the use of allies in the target line.
Not the use of "allies" in the effect line, or in any other section of rules text.

By RAI I meant: Rules As Intended. If you play Dark Sun and go "Oh, defiling has no downside, because my allies don't want to be hit by it" everybody knows you're not using the rules as they're intended.

You might be able to argue that by strict RAW you're right* but when RAI is perfectly clear on a subject, being a rules lawyer about it won't help you in any real game.

*(though I'm pretty sure you couldn't, and you certainly can't using only that quote)

 

[keterys]

And if you've got an enemy hanging out with you that is pretending to be an ally, whether it's an ally or not might change at any time.

Especially if you try defiling on it.

Whether defiling is a broken mechanic by RAW or not has no influence on how the rest of the system works.

 

[Kingreaper]

By RAW, Defiling works fine.

By RAW, when "ally" or "allies" is used in the target block, it means willing allies.

Nowhere else in the rules-text is mentioned, so, by strict RAW, allies only have to be willing when they're targets.

Arcane defiling has "ally (willing or unwilling)" in its effect block. The allies aren't targeted, and thus, by RAW, don't have to be willing.


This confirms that RAI doesn't require that allies always be willing, which is an important point with regards to interpreting things. Because using RAW is just asking for trouble.

 

[the Jester]

Of course, at any time its ally may declare it is not an ally for that purpose so... if the creature doesn't want to be forced through an ally, it won't be.

I find the idea of allowing allies to decide they are only allies when it is convenient to be very reminiscent (in a game-the-rules way) of the bag of rats, and I treat it the same way.