Forced Movement trhough one's ally's space

[Aegeri]

I find the idea of allowing allies to decide they are only allies when it is convenient to be very reminiscent (in a game-the-rules way) of the bag of rats, and I treat it the same way.

I agree, consider powers like sudden betrayal that targets enemies - it's far more worth while to use this power on an allied defender than an enemy. Powers target things for good reason, not because everyone can randomly decide to switch back and forth to enemy/ally at their convenience. Otherwise everyone would just declare themselves enemies when the wizard defiles and back to allies again when he does.

Which is just ridiculously dumb.

 

[keterys]

Yep. Now the real question is whether you'll see consistent interpretations

And I'm still curious how Dark Sun deals with an enemy that's pretending to be an ally that doesn't want to be defiled

 

[spayne]

"PHB, page 4, Target"
"When a power's target entry specifies that it affects you and one ofr more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power's effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets."

There's not a lot of interpretation to be done there. The fact that DS creates specifies a group that doesn't exist (the set of targets who are both unwilling and an ally is zero) doesn't really change that.

The terms assume willing targets, but they do not require willing targets.

 

[Mirtek]

The terms assume willing targets, but they do not require willing targets.

Except that an unwilling target is defined as an enemy.

4e only knows three states: you, ally, enemy and the only thing differencing allies from enemies is the mutual willingness.

Defiling is simply badly written and they just should find a better wording to accomplish their goal.

Edit: and acknowledging "you" as a state in it's own right is already liberal reading, otherwise they just as easily managed to write this darned part of the rules in a way that makes "you" a subgroup of enemy (you are not your ally, your enemy is everyone who is not your ally)


Edit 2: We play it that the decision to let someone pass through an occupied field is made by the occupier. Thus allies usually deny an attacker to move an ally through their field while enemies allow an enemy to be moved through theirs, just the opposite of what happens with willing moves.

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually, you can't change the definition of ally/enemy in the middle of resolution of a power.

Let's say Chuck is pushing Bob through Alice, and Alice is Bob's ally.

The reason is Bob is not using a power on Alice, so Alice cannot make a decision on whether she is a willing recipient or not of his power. The only thing Alice can make a decision on is Chuck's power, and whether she is willing or not to get hit by Chuck's power is irrelevant to whether Bob is an ally to her. What matters is Bob's powers.

So, every time Bob uses his powers, Alice is willing. And therefore, Alice is an ally. Alice does not get to decide whether or not she is an ally, being an ally is a state defined by her willingness towards Bob's powers. Until Bob uses another power on her, her willingness remains the same.

'So, Bob used healing word on you. So you're an ally.'
'But I'm an enemy now cause of what Chuck is doing.'
'I see. So, checking your willingness... Bob used healing word on you, and you were willing. So you're an ally.'
'But I want to be an enemy!'
'Then you need to start saying no to Bob's powers.'

Being an ally is predicated on player action, and as such, the DM makes the ruling accordingly. The player does not get to decide if they are allies or not, they decide if they are willing or not, and the DM rules accordingly.

Defiling is simply badly written and they just should find a better wording to accomplish their goal.

Defiling contradicts the allies rule. Specific beats general. It's not hard to understand. Current allies can make themselves unwilling but it does not affect how Defiling works on them. They remain allies for the purpose of defiling. Thusly, they cannot evade defiling by becoming 'unwilling'.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Edit 2: We play it that the decision to let someone pass through an occupied field is made by the occupier. Thus allies usually deny an attacker to move an ally through their field while enemies allow an enemy to be moved through theirs, just the opposite of what happens with willing moves.

Yeah, my general take on ally/enemy is that if both A and B agree that they are allies, they are allies, and if they don't, they're enemies, and that if you decide you're allies for part of someone's action, you're allies for the whole action.

If darksun says that defilers damage their unwilling allies, then that's just terrible writing without some clarification of ally and enemy to go with it. As is, is there really a reason to not simply declare that you're always the enemy of the party defiler (and have any number of roleplaying hooks to back that up, not least of which is "everyone on athas hates defilers")?

 

[Aegeri]

Yeah, my general take on ally/enemy is that if both A and B agree that they are allies, they are allies, and if they don't, they're enemies, and that if you decide you're allies for part of someone's action, you're allies for the whole action.

This is purely daft and prone to all manner of abuse. For example, perhaps I declare myself an ally when the Wizard uses destructive salutation. No stun for me because now the power doesn't target me (as it is enemies only).

Targeting is not something you turn on and off at a whim during a combat. Powers target and are balanced around ally/enemy/creature. These are not put on powers simply for pure convenience, these terms actually mean important things mechanically and you can't just decide enemy/ally randomly to take advantage of your powers. For example, I can't declare myself an enemy of one of my allies to let him use sudden betrayal on me. Then decide I am his ally again so I won't be targeted by a enemy targeting burst he uses.

It's frankly utterly ridiculous and not at all what the rules support.

If darksun says that defilers damage their unwilling allies, then that's just terrible writing without some clarification of ally and enemy to go with it.

Ally and enemy is 100% clear. It really is. Powers in 4E target allies, yourself, enemies and creatures. This is again, 100% clear. It is also clear that you shouldn't be able to just randomly decide if you're an enemy or ally at a whim to avoid or gain benefits from effects. The Bag of Rats in the DMG makes this 100% clear and IMO, covers this exact situation perfectly.

Also it could be true that you could decide to turn on your party member who is defiling. But when you declare your enemies you don't get to suddenly decide you are allies around a second later when its convenient to you. On the other hand, you could be an enemy of the parties defiler but you can expect his "friendly" AoE bursts are not at all friendly to you anymore. You don't get to decide you hate his guts and want to actively kill him, until he drops destructive salutation on the battlefield and you just happen to be in it.

When you change alliance, it's not temporary IMO. You decide you're an enemy, that's it: You're an enemy and party effects that benefit allies aren't going to effect you anymore.

 

[eamon]

Who chooses what's an ally and what not? There are at least two creatures involved in that decision and if the campaign is sufficiently grey there will be creatures that - by design - fall in that grey area.

If you're playing in a black and white campaign, then this just doesn't matter; the DM can handwave definitions and not bother with it any more. If you're playing in campaigns where things pretend to be allies, or allies pretend to be enemies to deceive others, or people just don't know yet - then what?

This isn't a bag of rats; it's simply an undefined (or at least ill-defined) area of the game.

Based on the columns at WotC concerning dominate and ally/enemy, I'd say they didn't think this through and that RAI is the handwave solution. Which means that when you want the distinction highlighted, you'll need to come up with something on your own: why not use the rule that creatures count as allies when both agree that they do. The question then becomes how quickly this distinction can change.

For the sake of the game, powers that break when allies become enemies aren't a good thing, in any case.

 

[Kingreaper]

Who chooses what's an ally and what not? There are at least two creatures involved in that decision and if the campaign is sufficiently grey there will be creatures that - by design - fall in that grey area.

A simple way to define who's an ally: If the one using the power would heal the other (and the other would accept that healing) they're allies.

If they are adventuring together, they're probably allies.

If the "ally" decides to reveal themself as actually a saboteur, then they stop being an ally.


In what kind of situation do you ACTUALLY find "ally" status confusing?

 

[eamon]

A simple way to define who's an ally: If the one using the power would heal the other (and the other would accept that healing) they're allies.

If they are adventuring together, they're probably allies.

If the "ally" decides to reveal themself as actually a saboteur, then they stop being an ally.


In what kind of situation do you ACTUALLY find "ally" status confusing?

For instance, in the case of the saboteur. He succeeds on his bluff check and isn't recognized, but the saboteur never considers the others allies - he's just waiting for a vulnerable moment to backstab the party at the next combat. The moment he uses that enemies-only power he intends to drop the ruse and include the party in the blast.

In any case, you're doing exactly what I said you'd do in a black-and-white campaign: handwave it. Being an ally or not then lies not within the realm of choice but DM interpretation. If you want to change allegiances fluidly and without weird corner cases, that's not going to work well. If you play an adventuring party that chops through evil monsters and occasionally befriends an NPC, it won't come up.