Forced Movement trhough one's ally's space

For instance, in the case of the saboteur. He succeeds on his bluff check and isn't recognized, but the saboteur never considers the others allies

While he maintains his ruse he should do. There isn't any reason to not consider them allies for effects until he intends to stab them in the back. None of this creates any complications at all. When he does stab them in the back, he is now an enemy - but he doesn't get to suddenly change his mind and become an ally again.
 
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While he maintains his ruse he should do. There isn't any reason to not consider them allies for effects until he intends to stab them in the back. None of this creates any complications at all. When he does stab them in the back, he is now an enemy - but he doesn't get to suddenly change his mind and become an ally again.
So he "stabs them in the back" with an enemies only burst. What happens?
 

So he "stabs them in the back" with an enemies only burst. What happens?

That's simple, they are now enemies and unless the current enemies are aware of him (perhaps they were expecting the betrayal ahead of time) the PCs soon discover that he's not their ally anymore. The thing with this is it's directly simple. He changes allegiance and that's it. He doesn't get to decide he's their ally again.

The issue is when PCs randomly decide they are enemies/allies for powers. The fighter becomes an enemy for sudden betrayal and then an ally to benefit from the taclords inspiring presence. That's where it fails to make sense. Not in the example you gave.
 

In any case, you're doing exactly what I said you'd do in a black-and-white campaign: handwave it. Being an ally or not then lies not within the realm of choice but DM interpretation. If you want to change allegiances fluidly and without weird corner cases, that's not going to work well.

What sort of weird corner cases?

Give an example that would, or has, actually come up in a real game you've played.

So he "stabs them in the back" with an enemies only burst. What happens?
He's decided to take his chance, and thus would no longer willingly heal them.

Thus, he's no longer treating them as allies.

They get hit by the blast, realise it was deliberate, and no longer consider him an ally.

Simple.


It works fine until people start trying to flip-flop allegiance on a round-by-round basis. At which point those people are just being arses, and should be counted as enemies IRL.
 

So he "stabs them in the back" with an enemies only burst. What happens?

Well as being an ally is a "trust, plus intent, issue" I would assume the second he decides to stop "living his cover" you would be an enemy and the burst hits you.
Assuming (as I always have) that any "enemies only" burst is a matter of picking all targets you want to in an area (so you swing a sword at everyone you want to hit or produce bolts of magic that try to zap anyone you choose) and this would indicate to the PCs that he has chosen to hurt them and is no really their ally anymore.
This is no different than two guys who don't like each other teaming up to get something/someone and then choosing to end their team-up by attacking each other the second the quest is over.

Ally is a matter of being willing to accept someone as "on your side", it isn't a moment by moment thing but it can be a switchable thing - but normally only toward enemy and not back again (betrayal makes an ally an enemy - proving you are an ally after trying to kill someone is a lot trickier).
 

I asked whether a devious spy could pretend to be an ally and switch allegiance half-way through a battle:
So he "stabs them in the back" with an enemies only burst. What happens?

And everybody agrees...
That's simple, they are now enemies and unless the current enemies are aware of him (perhaps they were expecting the betrayal ahead of time) the PCs soon discover that he's not their ally anymore.
They get hit by the blast, realise it was deliberate, and no longer consider him an ally.
Well as being an ally is a "trust, plus intent, issue" I would assume the second he decides to stop "living his cover" you would be an enemy and the burst hits you.

In short, the creature chooses who his ally is.

And I'll agree that flip-flopping every round to abuse a power is not a good thing. It's a sign of a poorly written power that should be fixed, because it's almost inherently the case that creatures choose their own allies and enemies - so if you're going to have a campaign where this matters, you'll need to fix the powers.

The weird corner cases start cropping up in various places, one of which being what happens when you let people change their allegiance like this - intentionally hit someone - and being hit is a good thing. Or, (apparently) in the case of the defilers, when you grant enemies a bonus that allies don't get.

The current allies vs. enemies distinction isn't clearly defined and doesn't deal well with freedom of choice. Everybody agrees that at some level you get to choose who's an ally and can change sides, but taken to the extreme not all powers or rules work with that very well.
 
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Another (simple) corner case:

Three creatures A, B and C start fighting each other. They're all enemies - but can the weakest two gang up on the strongest and flank him?
 

In short, the creature chooses who his ally is.

Correct, but you miss the important point here that we all also agree on: The change is permanent. The flip flopping of deciding at your advantage from turn to turn who your allies/enemies are is what we disagree people can do.
 

And I'll agree that flip-flopping every round to abuse a power is not a good thing. It's a sign of a poorly written power that should be fixed,
No, it's a sign of a player being an :):):):):):):), and the GM letting him.

The current allies vs. enemies distinction isn't clearly defined and doesn't deal well with freedom of choice. Everybody agrees that at some level you get to choose who's an ally and can change sides, but taken to the extreme not all powers or rules work with that very well.
Then don't take it to the extreme.

Be very simple.

Let me give you an example of a simple, and obvious, solution:
"You can't switch become an ally outside of an extended rest, and if you become an enemy you must roleplay that decision"

All of a sudden, either people accept that they're getting defiled, or the party kills the defiler.
Which is sensible.

Allowing people to flip-flop and trying to make the game work with it is like allowing people to hit a bag of rats for bennies, and trying to make the game work with that.


Another (simple) corner case:

Three creatures A, B and C start fighting each other. They're all enemies - but can the weakest two gang up on the strongest and flank him?
I've always ruled that if you have an enemy on either side of you, you're flanked.
Even if they aren't deliberately working together.
Even if one of them is actually an inanimate object that just takes Opportunity Attacks.

I just don't see how you can fail to be flanked when turning to face one enemy means turning your back on the other.
 

Discussion about what or how someone is made an ally or enemy without actually utilizing the discussion? The saboteur question is easily figured out. 'When you have a game rule, and no exception exists to the game rule, apply the damn rule.' Discussions of motivations, plot, narrative, all that... those are irrelevant to the rule element at hand.

An ally is any creature, other than yourself, who is a willing recipient of your powers. Everyone else, other than yourself, is an enemy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

In the case of the saboteur:

While he is infiltrating, ask if he is a willing recipient of the PCs' powers. If yes, then he is an ally for the purpose of those powers. If no, then he is an enemy.

Generally, the saboteur may decide to be willing. That makes him an ally.

Now let's say you have Alice, Bob, and Chuck who are the PCs. Darlene is the saboteur, a tinker gnome with wierd gadgets and what not.

Darlene is a willing recipient of all their powers. That makes her an ally for their powers.

Alice and Bob don't suspect anything. They decide that Darlene's alchemical tricks and artifice are pretty cool and would benefit them. They are willing to receive his powers. That makes them allies to Darlene.

Chuck doesn't trust Darlene. He decides not to be a willing recipient to her powers. That makes him an enemy to Darlene.

This creates the situation where Chuck is Darlene's enemy, but Darlene is Chuck's ally... and yet Darlene is the one who's supposed to backstab!

How is this possible?

Because 'ally' and 'enemy' when refered to in game elements do not mean the same thing as ally and enemy in a narrative sense. Trying to attribute narrative definitions to what are in actuality strictly game terms is just as incorrect as saying that all members of the monk class must belong to a monastery. It's a game term, and nothing more.

If the example of Darlene being an ally, but Chuck being an enemy confuses you, that is because you are not applying the game rule, and that is why you have trouble with players thinking you can change your allyness to prevent friends from being pushed through your square... they are literally taking advantage of your misunderstanding of how it works.

Townsfolk you just met? Probably doesn't trust your powers. Enemy. Saboteur who plans to stab you in your sleep? Ally.

It has nothing to do with their inevitable narrative intentions or whether or not you even like them. It only has to do with one single question: 'Are you a willing recipient of their powers.' If yes, ally. Otherwise, enemy. No other consideration matters, and such a determination can be easily made simply by the actions of the characters involved. Narrative can provide an answer to the question the rule demands, but narrative alone does not -define- ally or enemy.

The above is why the defiler has to have 'willing or unwilling ally' as who he defiles from. Because he IS using a power on other PCs, they could normally evade it if they decided they were unwilling, becoming enemies by dint of no longer being allies. By making allies able to be unwilling allies for that one power, it means that all that needs be concerned is if the ally is generally willing to be a recipient of the defiler's powers.

Of course, there exists a strong possibility that a group with a defiler might have members that are enemies for the defiler's powers to avoid being defiled. Such individuals trade the risk inherent in the defiler's enemy-blasting magics hitting them for safety from the defiler's ability to... well defile. This doesn't mean that they are enemies in the narrative and therefore the defiler and them must fight to the death. It just shows where they stand for the defiler's powers.

tl;dr: Narrative is irrelevant, if the saboteur is willing, he's the pc's ally, if the pc is unwilling, he's the saboteur's enemy, and at no point does this require attacks or blood be spilled to define.
 
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