Forgotten Realms and The Great Wheel

[Staffan]

If I'm running an FR game, I'll either not use the planes much at all, or I'll use the new FR cosmology which fits FR better. However, if I'm going to be running a Planescape game, I'd use the old version of the Great Wheel (with the Inner Planes connected by the Deep Ethereal rather than the Astral), and I'd cheerfully allow planehopping to a Realms that's part of the Great Wheel.

 

[Faraer]

My position (and Ed Greenwood's is similar) is that both versions of the planes are incomplete mortal maps of transcendent infinite realms, that players shouldn't feel confident they understand. The fact is that both cosmologies have compelling arguments for them.

Which isn't an option in this poll.

I do not, though, call the original planar structure 'the Great Wheel': that's a Planescape neologism that is not, as I recall, part of either Realms or World of Greyhawk lore.

 

[3catcircus]

I think the Realms is certainly deserving of its own cosmology instead of being shoehorned into Greyhawks. I never understand the people who complain about this: don't you think FR deserves it's own cosmology? Does it HAVE to get the left over dribblings of Greyhawk and get crammed into an illfitting model?

Now, instead of having to try and fit the planar geograph of EVERY setting ino the same Great Wheel, each and every setting gets to have it's own unique set of planes. I think it's a MARVELOUS way to handle things, and a wonderful way for every DM to customize his world.


Besides, all of the old cross setting travel is still possible through the plane of shadow. They put that bit in thier for a reason. By your own example, Waukeen traveled through the plane of shadow instead of the astral. Simple fix.



BTW, it doesn't even imply that Toril is the only world out there. It says that those are the planes connected to Toril. There is no reason that you couldn't travel far enough through space (the material plane) and get to Oerth, which has it's own planar connections to a different layout of planes.



[edit - ugh retch, please do NOT bring back Spelljammer, real world space for me, thanks. Crystal spheres, phlogiston, and planets on the backs of giant turtles is about the goofiest stuff I have ever seen printed in a D&D book. And yes, I owned a LOT of Spelljammer stuff.]

The problem that I see with your logic (and most everyone else's) is that you seem to think that a cosmology represents a single "world," when in fact, a cosmology represents the entire universe that it defines.

What I mean by that is by your way of thinking, in the real world, for example, you would be clamoring for a different "cosmology" for Mars than for Earth.

Abeir-Toril, Greyhawk, Krynn, whatever - they *all* have the *same* cosmology since, by TSR/WoTC writ, they are in the same universe.

Granted, the cosmology can *appear* to be different, based upon the observer's orientation to the "universe's magnetic compass," as it were.

So - everyone who talks about Great Wheel-this and Tree-that don't understand exactly what a *cosmology* is. In fact, even the FR authors didn't seem to understand it.

Let me reiterate - a cosmology applies to an entire universe. You *can't* have more than one cosmology per universe, although the cosmology that exists can appear to be different.

As an example - our own Milky Way's relationship to other galaxies. It certainly looks different to an observer inside the Milky Way than outside, depending upon the observer (and whether you are looking "top-down", "end-on," or "sideways," but it doesn't change the fact that the Milky Way is a galaxy that has spiral arms and a slighly bulging disc for a center.

As to Spelljammer. It works. It may be a bad attempt to impose magic upon space travel, but the basic premise works. Crystal Spheres are nothing more than galaxies, etc., etc.

Remember, planes are *not* solely physical locations, they are also a different order of magnitude in the number of dimensions of the cosmology.

 

[Faraer]

Well, cosmology is the study of the nature of the universe. Using the word to mean 'planar structure' is a specialized jargon use (one I'm not personally fond of), and if WotC wants to claim that multiple planar structures exist in the multiverse, they can.

 

[3catcircus]

Well, cosmology is the study of the nature of the universe. Using the word to mean 'planar structure' is a specialized jargon use (one I'm not personally fond of), and if WotC wants to claim that multiple planar structures exist in the multiverse, they can.

I agree with your intent - however, even 'planar structure' seems to imply a larger entity than just, say, the galaxy that contains Abeir-Toril, all of the other planets, and all of the different existences that are capable of being interacted with (celestial and infernal planes, etc.) Considering that WoTC has published information stating that Greyhawk can be reached from Toril via the 'Plane of Shadow' still implies that they are part of the same universe...

I dunno - I'm overly sensitive to this subject, maybe. I simply explain the differences away to my players to be due to the (as-yet-undiscovered-in-their-world theory of relativity combined with a bit of string theory) - that the 'cosmology' looks differently to someone on Toril than it does to someone on Oerth because the observer is looking at something from a different frame of reference and that planar travel is possible because of wormholes (although they don't call them that, being as how science hasn't reached that level on either Oerth or Toril.) Equally as useful and easy is Ed Greenwood's suggestion that both the Tree and the Wheel are merely incomplete human approximations of what the universe really looks like...

 

[Aaron L]

{edit double!}

 

[Aaron L]

The problem that I see with your logic (and most everyone else's) is that you seem to think that a cosmology represents a single "world," when in fact, a cosmology represents the entire universe that it defines.

Yes, I completetly understand what planes are, thank you.

Apparently, it is you who don't understand. These worlds now get thier own universes. And thier are multiple universes! Just because it is possible to travel from one self contained universe to another doesn't mean that they are the same universe. The concept of a multiverse has been around for quite a while.

No longer are all of these different fictional worlds tied to one set of universal and metaphysical laws, because each is independant of the others. Many universes, one plane of shadow.

No longer does Mordenkainen have to concern himself with Mystras Weave. He only has to concern himself with Boccob.

No longer does Athas have to be specially cut off from the rest of the universe with its own planes no one else can see and have a "sealed crystal sphere" and some convoluted reason why the gods leave it alone, it is in its own universe.

And no, crystal spheres weren't galaxies, they actually precluded galaxies. I cant have real space in a universe that it is filled with phlogiston and solar systems are suspended in crystal spheres to keep the phlogiston out. But guess what? YOU CAN have that thanks to the NEW concept of multiple universes!

Your universe can be like that, mine has real space filled with a few fleets of capital ships from the Dragon Empire roaming its galaxy with flights of archmages on point.

 

[Agamemnon]

I use the Great Wheel in FR, partly as a homage to Planescape, and partly because it's an alignment of planes that seems "logical" to me. Questions of cosmological geometry are fairly unlikely to come up in a campaign in the first place, and I can safely work with the assumption that the Faerun cosmology is merely the most widespread theory, and that it is, to put it bluntly, wrong.

Of course, the gods of Faerun may or may not be cognizant of this fact. Whether they would tell their faithful is anyone's guess. Maybe they just prefer that mortals deal with questions of life, the universe and everything on their own. They might be benevolent, but won't necessarily offer shortcuts to enlightenment.

The way I consider it, there is one Abyss, one Elysium, one stack of Nine Hells. Different worlds see them differently, or not at all. Maybe the people of Oerth, by an amazing lucky chance, got it right. Maybe not. Maybe the Great Wheel is just another illusion nested inside another like a Russian doll.

This idea of mine also presumes that material planes can be infinitely large. Maybe one contains galaxies and nebulae of millions of stars while another consists of crystal spheres floating in an ocean of phlogiston. One DEFINITELY contains a world turtle swimming her way through the eternal cosmos, carrying on her back four great elephants and a world shaped very much like a giant pizza.

If gods span worlds, they're the same god all over. If someone offs Lolth, Lolth is dead everywhere. That's how I see it, anyway. I quite like the idea of everything rotating around a central hub, and in the eye of that maelstrom, Sigil sits, the City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[Mystery Man]

I'm very close to running some planar adventures in the not to distant future. I'll be using the "tree" and pulling in "wheel" when I need to. There's no big overall driving reason, I just think some of the "tree" elements are way cool and want to use them.

 

[Sir Elton]

Planar adventuring never comes up in my games. Besides, I think gaming adventures outside of the planes is much more fun. So is the "Planar Handbook" completely useless to me? Yes.