D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Mephista]

Even if it were off on its own, it's certainly within Kelemvor's hypothetical power to tear down that wall and replace it with a more just system of judgement that, say, looks at a person's deeds and assigns them to a godly realm even if they didn't worship the deity, as an ally if not a servant. The fact that the pantheon seems to actively desire a more wicked and vile method of afterlife reassignment seems to fly in the face of the description of every supposedly Good deity the pantheon has.

There's a novel about that. It didn't work. People where basically committing kamikazi lifestyles, and were being rewarded for living frivalously, and basically endangering others. Kelemvor is convinced the Wall is a necessary evil.

Also, note that Kelemvor is Lawful Neutral, not Good. He doesn't care if its not a good method, he just cares that it works.

 

[Pauper]

It does. Heck mortal spellcasters can use souls as components to power spells, deities can do so much more. Fiends work with more souls dragged down kicking and screaming than the relatively few cultists that come willingly

Now Ilmater might never misuse the saved souls this way, Cyric definately would.

By my understanding of the covenant imposed by Ao following the Time of Troubles, even Cyric can't mess with the souls of petitioners that aren't devoted to him -- he can do whatever he wants with his own worshippers, but swiping souls that aren't devoted to him and don't provide him any power from their devotion (because they don't have any) isn't allowed.

That's the difference between the gods and the fiends in the Realms -- the fiends (save Asmodeus) aren't subject to the dictates of the Overgod.

And what in F&A contradicts On Hallowed Grounds on how deities generally use souls? The FR pantheon is also part of OHG.

On Hallowed Grounds is a Planescape sourcebook, not a Forgotten Realms one. Just as the Forgotten Realms cosmology does not follow the Great Wheel of Planescape, the activities of the Forgotten Realms pantheons are not defined by a Planescape resource (unless that's what you want for your own campaign).

Heck, in my own campaign, Sigil is a smoking ruin, so I already don't have to bother with anything coming out of a Planescape sourcebook.

--
Pauper

 

[Mirtek]

By my understanding of the covenant imposed by Ao following the Time of Troubles, even Cyric can't mess with the souls of petitioners that aren't devoted to him -- he can do whatever he wants with his own worshippers, but swiping souls that aren't devoted to him and don't provide him any power from their devotion (because they don't have any) isn't allowed.

the same would then apply to Ilmater saving then. If the good deities start touching these souls, si will the evil and neutral deities

On Hallowed Grounds is a Planescape sourcebook, not a Forgotten Realms one. Just as the Forgotten Realms cosmology does not follow the Great Wheel of Planescape, the activities of the Forgotten Realms pantheons are not defined by a Planescape resource (unless that's what you want for your own campaign).

no in 2e there is only one set if planes shared by all settings. F&A applies as much to OHG as vice versa. Events spill over from PS to FR and FR to PS

Heck, in my own campaign, Sigil is a smoking ruin, so I already don't have to bother with anything coming out of a Planescape sourcebook.

bur your and my campaign don't matter when Diskussion D&D lore

 

[Pauper]

Yes, but as I said, once the genie is out the of the bottle, and you get a ''war between worlds'', those heralds of madness and insanity become just the next BBEG. They lose mistery, and you still feel empowered, because you get to defeat them, study them, know how they work.

See, that's the point of providing that link from Extra Credits -- if you're providing the Far Realm as just another monster-generator, and that humanity can ultimately understand and even triumph over the Far Realm, then you're doing it wrong. Sure, you can say that it's more fun of a game to be able to beat up Cthulhu (or Zeus, or Odin), and if all you want is a nice, escapist game that doesn't have any bearing or connection on the greater issues of existence, that's fine.

The whole point of Cthulhu or the Far Realm, from a philosophical perspective, is to remind us that humanity is a speck, a smear of chemicals that somehow managed to become self-aware but is constantly standing on the verge of extinction, either at the whims of powers it can never comprehend, or simply by venturing out into a universe that simply doesn't care that it exists and finding that it has no place there.

The first paragraph of "The Call of Cthulhu" by Lovecraft himself puts it best, I think:

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

The only reason that the illithids haven't already put out the sun, or the aboleths haven't already flooded the world and made us all their jelly-covered slaves, is that those creatures exist in our stories, and we cast ourselves as the heroes in them. Most of us enjoy those stories, which is fine, but let's not confuse the ability to cast ourselves as the heroes in our own stories with the ability to actually overcome the unknowable and defeat the unthinkable. That way really does lie madness.

--
Pauper

 

[Phantarch]

I'm generalizing and NOT trying to start a religious debate, but a general tenet of Christianity is worship God or go to hell. There are no bonus points or exceptions for being a good person. In real life, you are more than welcome to decide that this belief is messed up, and choose another religion or no religion at all. You're even free to start your own religion. However, if you choose to accept Christianity, you accept that this is the fundamental nature of the afterlife, and you then work to understand how this is acceptable and God is still good. Believe me, there are THOUSANDS of theology books out there that strive to understand and explain this.

I only make this comment in that it applies to the Forgotten Realms. You have the same choices. You can decide that this is a horrible setup for the afterlife and does not fit your definition of Good and Evil. That's fine (I tend to agree), but that means you can choose another campaign setting or make your own (either from scratch or homebrew Forgotten Realms to have a different afterlife setup). However, if you want to play Forgotten Realms as published, you then have to accept that the afterlife setup is fundamentally the natural order, and then you have to work to understand how you can still have Good gods in this setup. And as for "understanding and accepting", you'll still have a thousand different answers just as there are a thousand denominations of Christianity with 2000 years of heated theological debate (among a group that AGREES on the basic tenets).

 

[Irennan]

By my understanding of the covenant imposed by Ao following the Time of Troubles, even Cyric can't mess with the souls of petitioners that aren't devoted to him -- he can do whatever he wants with his own worshippers, but swiping souls that aren't devoted to him and don't provide him any power from their devotion (because they don't have any) isn't allowed.

That's the difference between the gods and the fiends in the Realms -- the fiends (save Asmodeus) aren't subject to the dictates of the Overgod.



On Hallowed Grounds is a Planescape sourcebook, not a Forgotten Realms one. Just as the Forgotten Realms cosmology does not follow the Great Wheel of Planescape, the activities of the Forgotten Realms pantheons are not defined by a Planescape resource (unless that's what you want for your own campaign).

Heck, in my own campaign, Sigil is a smoking ruin, so I already don't have to bother with anything coming out of a Planescape sourcebook.

--
Pauper

Many Planescape rules are still true in the Realms. The fact that Toril exists in a Multiverse, and that the PHB explictly points to that, means that --in canon-- the FR cosmology can be identified with the Planescape one (5e has basically restored the Great Wheel, with some expcetions, but the foundation of that remains).

Also, going through F&A, in the section that explains how divinity works, I didn't see anything explicit said on how deities or fiends use souls, and if their use of them has any difference. So, I guess that we're just discussing speculations (not that it isn't fun, but we still don't have certainty on it).

 

[Alzrius]

By my understanding of the covenant imposed by Ao following the Time of Troubles, even Cyric can't mess with the souls of petitioners that aren't devoted to him -- he can do whatever he wants with his own worshippers, but swiping souls that aren't devoted to him and don't provide him any power from their devotion (because they don't have any) isn't allowed.

This actually gets touched on very briefly in the novel Prince of Lies. As one point, Cyric is contemplating all the ways that he's harassing Mystra and her worshippers, and it's noted that he has "press-gangs kidnapping her faithful from the Fugue Plane."

Now, maybe he's sub-contracted that out to groups that aren't his direct worshippers, but at least in that book there's a note that he is interfering with her worshippers after they've died. Of course, Cyric is the type who would undertake actions that aren't allowed anyway.

 

[Pauper]

the same would then apply to Ilmater saving then. If the good deities start touching these souls, si will the evil and neutral deities

Exactly correct -- it's Kelemvor's job to judge the souls of anyone who might be Faithless or False, and figure out where they go. Ilmater and Cyric have no part in that discussion (though the fiends, being outside of the rules, have their own ideas, and act on them).

no in 2e there is only one set if planes shared by all settings. F&A applies as much to OHG as vice versa. Events spill over from PS to FR and FR to PS
bur your and my campaign don't matter when Diskussion D&D lore

Well, the point to be made is that, whatever source we're picking needs to be implemented in a campaign -- and the DM of that campaign can overwrite any lore presented in any sourcebook. So if the DM prefers yours or my interpretation, or prefers her own, that's the version that will be used in that game and is thus 'canon' for that game.

--
Pauper

 

[Phantarch]

I also wanted to address the "why do you have to choose a patron deity?" topic from a few pages back. I personally don't think the Forgotten Realms works with general pantheon worshipers getting swept up by their closest match. Even though it is standard practice to pray to the right god for the right situation, I think most people in the Forgotten Realms would actively strive to choose a Patron deity.

First of all, the afterlife in Forgotten Realms is deity specific. So, when you choose a Patron, you are really choosing what you want your afterlife to be. I imagine that the clergy actively advertise what rewards await faithful worshipers of a specific deity, and you literally get to choose what sounds like your personal paradise.

Secondly, I think that patron deities tend to be chosen more often by social groups, not randomly by individual. If you want the hope of joining your family and friends in the afterlife, you'll all have to have the same patron deity (which, really, is preferable to being sent to your alignment plane if you are hoping to join up with loved ones).

Finally, I think having a patron helps you skip a step. I may be wrong here, but I think if you have a patron deity and have been faithful, they can just come down and pluck you off of the Fugue Plane. Without a patron, or even with a patron that you haven't been particularly dedicated to, you have to stand around for 200 years waiting to receive judgement by Kelemvor. I think that Kelemvor has the option to say, "Yeah, you worshiped the Pantheon as a whole, and it seems to me that your lifestyle most honored Chauntea, so you get to go to her realm." However, you had to stand in line for a couple of centuries to get that determination.

 

[Irennan]

See, that's the point of providing that link from Extra Credits -- if you're providing the Far Realm as just another monster-generator, and that humanity can ultimately understand and even triumph over the Far Realm, then you're doing it wrong. Sure, you can say that it's more fun of a game to be able to beat up Cthulhu (or Zeus, or Odin), and if all you want is a nice, escapist game that doesn't have any bearing or connection on the greater issues of existence, that's fine.

Personally, I'm not into that kind of games (mass invasions, world-ending threat, kill the uber unspeakable evil). I was just pointing that, taking the idea that sparked this discussion (Far Realm aberrations invading Toril through holes in the Wall of the Faithless), if you use the far realm in a game, and have aberrations wreak havoc in a full fledged, Hollywood-style invasion, then going for ''mystery'' and making the players feel powerless (or really limited), kinda makes the premise not really suitable for the atmosphere that game aims to create. As the video that you linked says, evoking such a feel requires to use the Far Realm creatures as obscure, ever creeping presences, not as ''in your face'' invading monsters.

The whole point of Cthulhu or the Far Realm, from a philosophical perspective, is to remind us that humanity is a speck, a smear of chemicals that somehow managed to become self-aware but is constantly standing on the verge of extinction, either at the whims of powers it can never comprehend, or simply by venturing out into a universe that simply doesn't care that it exists and finding that it has no place there.

The first paragraph of "The Call of Cthulhu" by Lovecraft himself puts it best, I think:

"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

Our Universe doesn't give a crap that we exist, that's true. As you put it, life is yet another natural process, more complex but not really different from a rock falling. However, we definitely do have a place in this Universe, otherwise we wouldn't exist. The fact that we are a ''smear of chemicals'' doesn't mean that we are meaningless: we function according the laws of the Universe, just like everything else, but --differently from the other ''specks''-- we have managed to understand much, and even use it to our advantage.

I don't agree that humanity has gone beyoned what ''was meant for them''. There isn't anything specific that is meant for us, except existing within the context of the Universe (and we don't even know if that was actually ''meant'', we just know that it happened). That isn't to say that humanity is limitless, but implying that learning how the Universe works is ''not meant'' for us is a baseless claim.

Returning to the Far Realms, we do have the possibility of understanding this Universe, and what exists within it. This is why I pointed out that, the moment the monsters from the Far Realm manage to exist within the Universe, they are subject to its rules, and the people of said Universe could understand how ''they work'', because even chaos or madness are just results of the laws of nature, and follow patterns.

The only reason that the illithids haven't already put out the sun, or the aboleths haven't already flooded the world and made us all their jelly-covered slaves, is that those creatures exist in our stories, and we cast ourselves as the heroes in them. Most of us enjoy those stories, which is fine, but let's not confuse the ability to cast ourselves as the heroes in our own stories with the ability to actually overcome the unknowable and defeat the unthinkable. That way really does lie madness.

--
Pauper

I don't agree with this. We have mutiple concrete examples of ''overcoming the unknowable'' in our history. ''Unknowable'' is a matter of perspective, and a lot of what was considered such in the past, can be now understood, and even simulated or predicted, through math. As I've already said, if something exists in this world, and can interact with us, then it works according to the laws of nature