D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[JohnLynch]

It fits with the idea of religion. In a world where there are real deities, why would there be a place for the dead that don't believe? The Wall of the Faithless was how the FR inserted the idea of damnation for the nonbeliever in a world where they had no place because the gods were "real." I was glad they implemented. I don't like the modern version of D&D where a player can choose to follow a philosophy and still gain power. It goes against the ideas that the polytheistic religions of D&D were built on. What is the point of even having D&D if everyone can be their own god in essence by worshipping whatever philosophy or force they feel like and gain power. If that were possible, gods would not even need to exist.

If you want a world with polytheistic religions based on ancient human ideas of polytheism, then you need constructs like the Wall of the Faithless to punish the nonbeliever.

Of course if you don't a world with religions, then run it your way. I find a world filled with gods with no punishment or penalty for nonbelief pointless and completely against everything we know of real world religions. It lacks verisimilitude and makes religion a pointless construct in the fantasy realm.

If the wall was for the insane (as you would have to be insane not to believe in gods in a world filled with miracles and angels on a somewhat daily basis) who actually believed the gods didn't exist that would be one thing. But it's for people who dare not show enough devotion. How much devotion is insufficient is going to change from person to person. Exploring play where players are not showing enough devotion is something I'm not interested in. I also don't like the idea of every single person having to hold one deity above all others. If you worship the gods as part of your everyday life (blacksmiths say a quick thankyou or ask for strength before working on a piece of metal or gamblers ask for a bit of luck or ask Beshaba to look the other way) before they sit down to gamble. Whatever people do in their daily life will naturally cause them to venerate certain gods above others. To have to sit down and say "nope. This is the god I definitely worship more than any other" is a bit jarring and an unnecessary step IMO of character creation. I gave players a list of 10 deities and asked them to pick a patron deity OR a few deities they worship in every day life. I don't want to then make a value judgement on how those players are playing their character to say "ACtually. You didn't pray enough times to any of the gods so off to the wall you go."

 

[hawkeyefan]

I would say that Kelemvor has a lot more say and a lot more options than making them a guide to other souls or turning them to larvae and casting them to the dust. I kind of see him like Thanatos in the Incarnations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony; anyone that is so balanced between good and evil and law and chaos needs to be judged by him rather than simply going on to the appropriate afterlife.

I would think those who flat out deny the gods or who flagrantly denounce them all might be the only ones truly bound for the wall.

That being said, I think they've added a level of vagueness to it to allow for leeway by each DM/gaming group rather than having a specific interpretation being canon.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think that if you live in a world that absolutely and provably has Deities (like the Forgotten Realms) then why would you not have a Patron Deity?

Because you do not believe that the deities are worthy of worship. Since the FR deities are a bunch of squabbling brats that neglect their worshipers (according to AO), and that even the good deities suffer the wall to exist, that's not an unreasonable stance to take.

Alternately because you don't believe they are actually deities, merely ultra powerful mortals... and since at least some of them (all of them?) are actually ascended mortals, and several of them have died, that's again not an unreasonable stance to take.

Alternately because you believe the deities are so powerful they don't actually need your worship.

 

[gyor]

Yeah the wall could have stayed gone, its weird they keep it when the vast majority of fans from all editions don't seem to like it.

That beings said, I'd just with only people who 100% don't believe the Gods exist count as the faithless, and those who claim to follow a gods tenents, but radically betray them count as the false.

Both are a danger to the gods, the first undermine the faith the Gods depend on and the latter twists peoples beliefs, warping a Gods worship.

Which can lead to Gods dying, and when a God dies all kinds of bad sh★t happens.

Still perhaps after a 100 years of wall time, the soul is reborn.

 

[Irennan]

At the point of death a character's spirit is not automatically interred in the Wall.

As you (Irennan) know, there is a process involved: the character arrives outside the City of the Dead, along with other souls. Devils may appear, and they'll try to convince the souls of the formerly powerful to join them in Hell. The representatives of the gods will arrive in all their glory to collect the souls destined to an eternity in the Outer Planes. The remainder will be drawn to the City (or rounded up, I can't quite remember), where eventually they will face judgement.

If I recall correctly, there is a Realms novel that depicts all of this. That memory is what I used when I ran my campaign with the faithless PC.

There's half a hundred roleplaying opportunities to be had from start to finish, and plenty of time for still-living PCs to try and work a miracle of their own.

Yeah, there's also a computer game that revolves around that. What I meant is that the dead PCs' soul wouldn't be able to do much, unless it was given the ability to act. But, if we go by canon, the PC's memory would be lost (memory ''caches'' drift around in the Astral Plane, according to ''On Hallowed Ground''), so it would be like playing a completely different character. The player would have to impersonate another character, in order to go along with that. But then, it also is what would happen in another setting, so now I kind of see your point, in the possibility to recover the old PCs' soul.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

The concept of having a patron deity does not require holding one deity above all others.

The concept does not require characters to "explore their spirituality" or any of that nonsense.

The concept explicitly does not rule out daily veneration of multiple deities, which is an activity described in multiple Realms sources.

The Wall, as far as I know, isn't a tool of punishment, it's just where the souls of the truly faithless go.

 

[JohnLynch]

The concept of having a patron deity does not require holding one deity above all others.

Can you please define what is a patron deity then?

The Wall, as far as I know, isn't a tool of punishment, it's just where the souls of the truly faithless go.

Those who firmly deny any faith or have only given lip service most of their lives and never truly believed are known as the Faithless after death

The bolded part is me, as a DM, now making a value judgement as to whether or not the player in question worshiped the gods "enough" during gameplay to be considered as to not have just paid lip service. The bolded part does have the qualifier of "never truly believed" however given that we already have those who "firmly deny any faith" then we can conclude that "never truly believed" doesn't mean they didn't believe in the gods but that they didn't believe in what a particular god advocated. I.e. They only paid lip service. The wall punishes those who aren't devout enough. That sort of thinking starts to veer off into how certain real world religions appear to operate which can (and often does) result in real life baggage being brought into the game. That's now what I game for and is not particularly fun. I'd rather encourage players to worship gods so much as they enjoy doing so, not because of the bogeyman that is the Wall of the Faithless.

 

[Shasarak]

Because you do not believe that the deities are worthy of worship. Since the FR deities are a bunch of squabbling brats that neglect their worshipers (according to AO), and that even the good deities suffer the wall to exist, that's not an unreasonable stance to take.

Alternately because you don't believe they are actually deities, merely ultra powerful mortals... and since at least some of them are actually ascended humans, and several of them have died, that's again not an unreasonable stance to take.

Alternately because you believe the deities are so powerful they don't actually need your worship.

So in any of these cases you would not need to worry about ending up in the Wall of the Faithless because it is most likely just a big lie designed to trick guileless fools like a giant Deity ponzi scheme.

 

[Irennan]

Can you please define what is a patron deity then?

It is a preferred deity, or a deity that has a particular influence on someone's life. For example, Chauntea to a farmer. However, this doesn't mean that someone who prays and worships Chauntea more often/intensely than they do with other deities, thinks that Chauntea is superior or above the others. She simply has more influence on the farmer's life than, say, Umberlee might have.

Also, someone may identify themselves with the cause or ideals of a deity, and choose to dedicate themselves to said deity, but that doesn't mean that the person sees their deity as inherently superior or above the others. And it doesn't mean that they won't pray to other gods, if needed.

 

[JohnLynch]

It is a preferred deity, or a deity that has a particular influence on someone's life. For example, Chauntea to a farmer. However, this doesn't mean that someone who prays and worships Chauntea more often/intensely than they do with other deities, thinks that Chauntea is superior or above the others. She simply has more influence on the farmer's life than, say, Umberlee might have.

So here's a question: If I choose not to specify a single deity as my patron deity in character creation but instead pray to certain deities throughout gameplay, do I or do I not have a patron deity?

If it means I do have a patron deity, does not anyone who prays to the gods end up having a patron deity? They would have to be very careful to ensure they pray to multiple gods exactly eqaully.