D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Irennan]

Why? You said a patron deity is a god that has particular significance to the person's life, like Chauntea does to a farmer. If I am praying to gods as part of my daily life, am I not going to pray to one god more than another dependent on what I spend my days doing? Why must I, during character creation, say "this is definitely my patron deity" rather than let it shake out as part of gameplay?

I meant that the character wouldn't have any particular ''chosen'' patron deity (for example, they worship the various gods, but don't stop and think who among them has the most influence on their life). In a ''practical'' situation, everyone feels closer to some gods than they do with others, and that could be considered their patron, even assuming that, if you asked the character themselves, you wouldn't receive any precise answer. If a player didn't want to write a name on their sheet, I would have no problem with it. I would also have no problem with players that want to list many names, or with players that want their characters to have nothing to do with the gods (and I don't use the Wall either). But in the first case, as you point out, there would still be a closer deity, and I would consider them the character's patron, even if no actual ''chosen'' patron exists.

EDIT: In the case of character without deity, if it were up to me, they would still have a ''patron deity'' defined by their action, even if they refused to worship any god. That's because in my world gods value and are empowered by actual actions and beliefs that further what they stand for, whether people take part in rites or not. So, after their death, even a ''faithless'' character would be taken to a divine Realm, according to what they did in their life.

That wouldn't necessarily make them Wall material. As a DM (if I follow canon) I have to determine whether that player only paid lip service or truly worshiped a particular deity.

That would be an almost non-existent possibility. Most people actually work towards the teaching of at least a deity by simply doing their profession. An ''honest'' soldier would be true to Tempus' teachings, a soldier that embraces bloodshed and pillaging would be true to Garagos, a smith would be contributing to Gond's ideals and so on.

 

[JohnLynch]

Maybe they are False worshipers?

Can you outline what makes someone a false worshiper? We can run around this merry go round all day long. It comes down to this:

• Patron deity: A deity that holds significance to that person.
• Worshiping gods as part of your daily life will likely result in you worshiping a god more than other gods.
• Assuming someone isn't miming the words while internally rolling their eyes, have they not truly worshiped a god?
• If someone has truly worshiped a god is it not likely that the person will venerate one god more than others?
• If they venerate one god more than others do they not have a patron deity by default?

If we go by the final conclusion, there is therefore no need for a player to choose a patron deity at character creation.

My guess would be because, as a DM, there is a significant difference between coming up in a game and not contributing towards the game.

I know that I create a lot of lore that may never come up in a game.

As do I. Although I don't create a lot of lore, wait for it to come up and then hand wave it away because people won't enjoy exploring that lore. I'd rather change the lore (as I have done) so that it doesn't need to be handwaved away or not create it in the first place.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

JohnLynch, I just read your last reply, and I have to say this: can you please cut out the snark and the attitude?

Those of us who are answering your questions aren't doing this for the sake of arguing, we're responding because we have good intentions, and because we have experience with the topic (both in-game and through prior discussions, of which there have been many).

Have the decency to respect that, OK?

 

[JohnLynch]

as you point out, there would still be a closer deity, and I would consider them the character's patron, even if no actual ''chosen'' patron exists.

That would be an almost non-existent possibility. Most people actually work towards the teaching of at least a deity by simply doing their profession. An ''honest'' soldier would be true to Tempus' teachings, a soldier that embraces bloodshed and pillaging would be true to Garagos, a smith would be contributing to Gond's ideals and so on.

In which case the usefulness of the Wall as a piece of realmslore that contributes positively to gameplay is brought into question as it is almost impossible for anyone to not have a patron deity.

 

[JohnLynch]

Those of us who are answering your questions aren't doing this for the sake of arguing, we're responding because we have good intentions, and because we have experience with the topic (both in-game and through prior discussions, of which there have been many).

Have the decency to respect that, OK?

I apologise. I was getting a bit frustrated but I think it's clear the point I was making and I do appreciate others responses and understand where they are (for the most part) coming from.

 

[Shasarak]

Can you outline what makes someone a false worshiper? We can run around this merry go round all day long. It comes down to this:

• Patron deity: A deity that holds significance to that person.
• Worshiping gods as part of your daily life will likely result in you worshiping a god more than other gods.
• Assuming someone isn't miming the words while internally rolling their eyes, have they not truly worshiped a god?
• If someone has truly worshiped a god is it not likely that the person will venerate one god more than others?
• If they venerate one god more than others do they not have a patron deity by default?

If we go by the final conclusion, there is therefore no need for a player to choose a patron deity at character creation.

In that case and if it never ever comes up in game, maybe the Player can choose a patron Deity at character death instead.

As do I. Although I don't create a lot of lore, wait for it to come up and then hand wave it away because people won't enjoy exploring that lore. I'd rather change the lore (as I have done) so that it doesn't need to be handwaved away or not create it in the first place.

You are right, if I had created the Wall of Faithless for example then I would not handwave it away just because some one does not like being just another brick in the wall.

 

[Irennan]

In which case the usefulness of the Wall as a piece of realmslore that contributes positively to gameplay is brought into question as it is almost impossible for anyone to not have a patron deity.

Well, I kinda agree with you here, and --as I said-- I prefer to not use it in my FR. I edited my previous post with my take on faithless characters:

In the case of character without deity, if it were up to me, they would still have a ''patron deity'' defined by their action, even if they refused to worship any god. That's because in my world gods value and are empowered by actual actions and beliefs that further what they stand for, whether people take part in rites or not. So, after their death, even a ''faithless'' character would be taken to a divine Realm, according to what they did in their life.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

I have a question for everyone....just out of curiosity, will this ever actually come up in anyone's game?

As I stated previously, it came up in a campaign of mine, and I knew it was coming.

If you don't have a player that's actively a non-worshipper, then it's not an issue that should come up. And even then it might not matter, because the player may not care.

 

[hawkeyefan]

As I stated previously, it came up in a campaign of mine, and I knew it was coming.

If you don't have a player that's actively a non-worshipper, then it's not an issue that should come up. And even then it might not matter, because the player may not care.

I have players whose characters couldn't care less about the gods. Some of them openly defy the gods, thinking of them simply as higher beings rather than actual deities. And all of this plays a big part in aspects of our game.

But if those characters die, what happens to their souls....I don't know if that will ever come up.

 

[Jester David]

My main issue here is that this is basically a punishment in the lore for any character whose player doesn't want to bother wading through the massive list of deities and picking one that they like. No matter how noble their deeds, no matter how many lives they save, no matter how much good they do, no matter how many evil plots they stop, a character can't get a good afterlife without checking a box on a form that says "Prayed to a god sometimes." The BEST a character can hope for is to be a guide, which basically means escorting others to paradises that they'll never actually be a part of.

I assume the reason the wall exists is specifically to encourage players to pick a patron. Patron deities, having faith, and the myriad gods is a big part of the setting, one of the few ways the Realms is different from other generic D&D fantasy settings. Picking a god should be encouraged. And the Wall discourages boring players from saying "oh, I'm just an atheist. Yeah, I know I just saw a god down the lane, and angels, and The Devil. But atheist."

That said, it's really a non-issue since by the time a character is part of the Wall, they are not being played. It has no impact on the game.

If the player cannot do the minimum effort needed to read through the list of deity portfolios in the back of the PHB and pick a name of a chart, they're also unlikely to even know about the Wall.

Also, there's no reason to punish the character for the player's ignorance. It can be assumed the character has a patron, but worship and reverence never happen "on camera".

The DM can also get involved if they feel its an issue, having a god do the party a solid and offer themself as patron. So the player just has to accept.