D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

Your earlier posts suggested, to me at least, that canon was something you (as an individual fan) had control over, that you could choose what was and what was not canon. Hence my response.

Was anybody in this thread claiming that not using canon (in part or in whole) is bad-wrong-fun? If so, I missed it.

But as both you and I have stated in our own posts, yes, DM's are free to use whatever level of canon they want in their games. It's part of the strength of D&D!

But, DM's choosing to go full canon is cool too, and not remotely stupid. Do we agree there?

Sure, absolutely use whatever works for you!

My posts were mostly in response to Hussar claiming that certain points of view were invalid due to established canon. I say that is complete hogwash.

Canon is of course, official material, but as you pointed out what constitutes official may vary slightly (do video games count? novels? comics? etc.) and may vary over time or from author to author and edition to edition. For a fun look at how crazy canon can be, try to reconcile pretty much anything in Star Trek. They never could maintain consistency, even from one episode to the next, let alone across seasons or series. That's why I find practically no value in the concept of a "shared world". By necessity everyone's version of it WILL be different. The value comes in using it as a starting point for ideas and to save work. I think Gygax understood this very well when he released the early Greyhawk products.

I suppose there is a bit of difference in philosophy in my point of view as well. Where some may see canon as the default path, and choosing to abandon it as a conscious decision; I much prefer the idea of complete freedom of imagination, with canon material as merely a single example of what can be done. It may seem like a small matter of semantics (glass half full vs half empty), but I think how you view it mentally has a pretty big impact on what you are willing to attempt in your games. We already get enough conditioning to accept commercial products as somehow superior to DIY without it watering down our imaginations as well.

In a way creating a campaign world is much more a destructive act than constructive, i.e. for every choice you make, you rule out countless other possibilities. Limiting yourself to a single interpretation made by a committee or an unrelated string of authors stretched over decades whose primary goal is to sell books, would be a disserve to yourself and your players, don't you think?
 

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It's obvious that DMs and players can do things as they please in their game. The difference is that the FR is a shared world, it exists as a common base for those who produce storylines that take place within the setting, including modules and adventures. Those authors must be on the same page to produce material: without this, there is no internal coherence. So, canon is not idiotic and is needed for a setting like the Realms.

Now, I don't think that people here meant to say that you are forced to follow canon when playing in your campaign (that would be, as you say, idiotic), but it has little relevance when it comes to the ''official'', published Realms.

Read more closely. I did not say canon itself was idiotic. We agree that canon has a purpose: to provide a common base for authors (when they actually pay attention to it, which is another matter). It makes it easier to produce books and other products. Those books and products may be useful to DM's and players, but following the canon itself is not directly useful any moreso than any following any other DM's world would be.

The concept of a "shared world" is useful to those producing products for it. It is not inherently useful for those adapting their games around it.
 

I'm still waiting for I'm a Banana to show me all these religions that tolerated faithnlessness given he is a student of religion. And explain why faithlessness is not wrong in a world with gods. I've read a lot on mythology and religion. And the non-believer is nearly always a character that is punished for his faithlessness. Why should the Realms be different?

Well, it is a Fantasy world so we dont have to follow the real world.
 

And the non-believer is nearly always a character that is punished for his faithlessness. Why should the Realms be different?

There are many ugly, boring, un-fun things about the real world. Why should the Realms be the same?

In other news: It turns out the ancient greeks were right, and practically everyone is faithless. Oops. Everyone's religion is someone's mythology and vice versa.
 

In a way creating a campaign world is much more a destructive act than constructive, i.e. for every choice you make, you rule out countless other possibilities. Limiting yourself to a single interpretation made by a committee or an unrelated string of authors stretched over decades whose primary goal is to sell books, would be a disservice to yourself and your players, don't you think?

No, I don't. It really boils down to personal style and preference, with no choice being a disservice to yourself when making it.

I've played in fast-and-loose cosmology games where there was no effort to game in a coherent setting at all. Anything goes.

I've played (and run) games within coherent homebrew settings, which, really, are essentially shared worlds that are only shared by a small group of people. And the DM gets to choose what is and is not canon. Not all that different from published settings, except on a much smaller scale.

I've played in published settings, including the Realms, where the players didn't worry much about contradicting canon, but still enjoyed the shared world of the Realms and that community experience it offers.

And, rarely, I've played in games where the group holds very tightly to established canon. It's important to them, it enhances their experience. This usually only works if the whole group enjoys this level of adherence to canon, rather than if it is a single player or DM imposing it on the rest.

None of these options (or the myriad of other combinations I haven't thought of) are inferior or superior to the others, or offer a disservice to the players.

As long as everyone's having fun, who cares? Whatever floats your boat!
 

And, rarely, I've played in games where the group holds very tightly to established canon. It's important to them, it enhances their experience. This usually only works if the whole group enjoys this level of adherence to canon, rather than if it is a single player or DM imposing it on the rest.

I've never played in such a game and would not enjoy it. No one I've played with over many years has ever expressed a desire to do anything like this. To me this seems like tying your shoelaces together before the marathon starts.

Still, if everyone in the group enjoys that level of devotion to a piece of material, then more power to them. One question: Have you ever experienced such a situation where that group's adventures became a canon violation retroactively due to changes in canon? If so, how did you handle it? Or how would you? Obviously if you don't care about such things, it is easy, but if you do, then what? Just curious.
 

Read more closely. I did not say canon itself was idiotic. We agree that canon has a purpose: to provide a common base for authors (when they actually pay attention to it, which is another matter). It makes it easier to produce books and other products. Those books and products may be useful to DM's and players, but following the canon itself is not directly useful any moreso than any following any other DM's world would be.

The concept of a "shared world" is useful to those producing products for it. It is not inherently useful for those adapting their games around it.

Well, if games are adapted around the official version of the setting, then it does have a use. The canonical Realms remain the base version that DMs and players customize to varying degrees, the information about the setting as presented in the published products. When using and customizing the Realms, we are (obviously) still using and customizing that information (even if it is simple stuff like ''I ignore everything that happened after 1358 DR'').
 

Wow, between the references to RW religions and the discussion over canon I suddenly feel like I stumbled into a Christian forum. Maybe we all should tone down that part, the wall is flamebaitty enough by itself. After all one's reaction to the Wall of the faithless has nothing to do with one's real life religion/lack of religion -I consider myself religious and I feel repulsed by the idea, it feels wrong-.

The officialness -yes in this case I feel better using official instead of canon- of certain events and plots, and even the right interpretation of these are more or less important depending on how do you play. Of course you care a lot if your only way to play is through AL -but that doesn't make you less of a gamer-, of course you can get away with deciding to ignore official lore and reinterpret everything if you have a steady longterm group with rotating DMs. Though in this case it is good to be aware of your privilege, and not just shun players who ask for changes in official lore and official options. It is perfectly fine to express dissatisfaction with an official option, and desire for that to change. It doesn't really take away from people with steady groups, and it only bothers people who are deadset on having the Wall of the Faithless as an official part of the Realms and can only have fun if it exists on all tables. It would be interesting to know how popular the thing really is.
 

And why should good persons get a better treatment than evil persons?

That would imply that good is some higher cosmic truth than evil, law or Chaos.

Why not weight everyone against the Bane's iron guantlet or something intangible like Cyric's lies?

Evil enough you get a pass and too good and it's into the wall with you.

The evil deities would like that

Note though, the weighing of the soul against Tyr's gauntlet does not determine the alignment of that soul. It only determines whether that soul had any faith in the pantheon before death. You still have to be judged after being weighed against the hand to determine your final disposition. All the hand does is determine faith level. Have faith in the gods, and no wall for you.
[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION]' link earlier in the thread is just an excellent dissection of the issue. Really worth the read: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questio...ss-after-death
 

How do we know the good gods of Faerun are "sitting idly by" while innocents suffer for eternity in the wall? We've seen very few of the gods' stance on the Wall...mostly Kelemvor, Cyric, and Mystra...and I suppose Myrkul an Jergal prior to the whole Avatar Series. Have we seen any others comment on it in any novels or gamebooks?

Perhaps the other deities would like to change the system? Perhaps they are not powerful enough to do so? Seems like Ao is the major one at fault here, since, presumably, he designed the system.

But he's perfectly True Neutral, isn't he? So would a soul's level of innocence or goodness actually matter to him? Or to a system that he set up?

I don't know if we can hold all the deities accountable for this, as [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] mentions. They are not omnipotent in the way we tend to think of deities. They are merely cogs in the machine. They cannot change the system anymore than one lawyer could change the entire judiciary system.

Perhaps this system is in place for a reason? If so, what could that be? It seems to be about balance...about giving neither side an advantage over the other, good or evil, lawful or chaotic.

For me and my players...our campaign is largely based on Planescape, where the gods are just The Powers. They're powerful beings, higher up the chain than Proxies, Petitioners, Planars, or Primes. But are they worthy of worship? That's an interesting question and is one of the themes of our campaign.
 

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