D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

Yeah. And even then, the FR gods almost always (and I mean literally, just look at the current pantheon) find their way back into the living. Besides, in FR deities rarely are truly killed, as recent ''history'' examples show us.

First up - [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] the original reply was to "It's undeniable that the gods aren't mortals" or something along those lines, not that they are not gods.

Secondly the same unkillable status can be ascribed to many adventurers. They die, but they come back pretty snappily. It's another tick in the "Gods are pretty much just super powerful creatures" column.
 

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Perhaps the other deities would like to change the system? Perhaps they are not powerful enough to do so? Seems like Ao is the major one at fault here, since, presumably, he designed the system.
It's been repeatedly pointed out that there was a point where the wall did not exist, and was later created by Myrkul. AO may have let it happen, and may have put in place a system where it was beneficial to the gods to enforce worship but he didn't put a system in place that necessitated it.

There's also some contention as to whether the wall even exists/is used any more. I've seen several comments that Kelemvor no longer puts souls in the wall, and the fate of the faithless now is just to be bored for eternity.

The only hard evidence that contradicts that is a single line in the SCAG.
 

It's been repeatedly pointed out that there was a point where the wall did not exist, and was later created by Myrkul. AO may have let it happen, and may have put in place a system where it was beneficial to the gods to enforce worship but he didn't put a system in place that necessitated it.

There's also some contention as to whether the wall even exists/is used any more. I've seen several comments that Kelemvor no longer puts souls in the wall, and the fate of the faithless now is just to be bored for eternity.

The only hard evidence that contradicts that is a single line in the SCAG.

I don't think that Myrkul inventing the wall means that Ao wasn't involved. Ao determines the portfolios of the gods, correct? Perhaps he made sure that an entity that would put his desired system into place took over that portion of Jergal's portfolio when he "retired".

There's so much about all this that is unknown that if an author decide to really examine it, they could take it in almost any direction they wanted.
 


First up - [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] the original reply was to "It's undeniable that the gods aren't mortals" or something along those lines, not that they are not gods.

Secondly the same unkillable status can be ascribed to many adventurers. They die, but they come back pretty snappily. It's another tick in the "Gods are pretty much just super powerful creatures" column.

Umm, no. I said that it's undeniable that the gods are gods in FR. By canon, they are gods. You can believe whatever you want, but, in FR, the gods are, in fact, gods. That is just a fact of the setting. Whether a god can be killed or not has no bearing on whether or not something is a god. They're gods because it says so right there in supplement after supplement. At no time has there ever been any doubt whether the gods are in fact gods.
 


Well, it is a Fantasy world so we dont have to follow the real world.

Because the conceit has always been that all those crazy ideas of our ancient ancestors turned out to be real as in "surprise, the gods are real and they are managing all things". That is the foundation of fictional creations from Tolkien to the Forgotten Realms. Why wouldn't world creators create religions that mirror the real world however imperfectly, including unpleasant things like The Wall of the Faithless? Even to good gods, faithlessness is a bad thing. I guess it seems to me that people in this thread don't like the idea that faithlessness is considered evil in and of itself even by good gods. It seems some in this thread including the OP want the designers to remove this idea from the game to suit their personal sensibilities.
 

There are many ugly, boring, un-fun things about the real world. Why should the Realms be the same?

In other news: It turns out the ancient greeks were right, and practically everyone is faithless. Oops. Everyone's religion is someone's mythology and vice versa.

Where did you find this? One of the Greek philosophers?

The Greeks were a very religious people. They built tons of temples and shrines to venerate their gods. They sacrificed a great deal. They spent a great deal of time trying to appease the gods and blaming the fall of their society for failure to appease them. So saying, "The Greeks believed everyone was faithless" is kind of ridiculous. I'd love to see the source material. I've read quite a bit of Greek and Roman history, their level of belief in their gods was one of the surprising aspects of their culture.
 

How do we know the good gods of Faerun are "sitting idly by" while innocents suffer for eternity in the wall? We've seen very few of the gods' stance on the Wall...mostly Kelemvor, Cyric, and Mystra...and I suppose Myrkul an Jergal prior to the whole Avatar Series. Have we seen any others comment on it in any novels or gamebooks?
Torm doesn't like it. He even appeared in person in Cyric's court when a soul Cyric was ready to put in the wall managed to mutter his name just to argue the souls case and why he should take the soul with him.
 

It was a while ago. Here's a referesher
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To that old nugget, I might add Ma'at is a legal principle, so you didn't have to believe in or worship Osiris/Anubis/Re/Horus/Amun/Whatever to be judged positively by that feather (and attempts to enforce an orthodoxy were not always met well), that staight vegetarians who happen to not be Jewish but who might be, say, Christian, Islamic, or even certain flavors of Hindu are gonna be pretty OK in Jewish eschatology (such as it is), that certain flavors of Greco-Roman paradise cared if you were "good" but didn't give a frig about if you thought Jupiter was a great guy or not, that there's about as many Christians and Jews in Janna as there are Muslims according to the Hadith, and probably MANY MORE pre-Islamic people, and that the current pope expects to see athiests in heaven with him.

Those all, to varying degrees, are DEFINITELY toleration of faithlessness. In fact, it's more typical to have a place for "virtuous pagans" than to exclude them. All unbelievers being punished for eternity is not a concept that has been common throughout history. Why would the Realms be different?
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In FR specifically, the gods are little more than magical people - no different than powerful archwizards or mighty dragons. You've got elves that are older than some of the gods floating around the setting, and Elminster has survived the death of DOZENS of them. Sometimes, they're literally magical people - human beings who underwent apotheosis. In a world such as that, there's no more reason to worship Azuth "because he's a god" than there is to worship your local beholder "because he's a frickin' beholder" (there might be MORE reason to worship the latter, if he's nearby!). All being a god in FR means is that you control some aspect of the world as a whole. That means you need to be dealt with, but it doesn't mean you deserve to be honored and respected and worshiped. Giving lip service to the gods or not really giving a frig about 'em or even going all "Rage at the Heavens" are all reasonable responses to these powerful entities, just as they are reasonable responses to, I dunno, Lord Neverember. What's so bad about not worshiping the gods that makes it different from not worshiping a pantheon made up of the Lord's Alliance? The Dragonborn are even canonically "What's so great about gods?" kinds of people. There's no real satisfying answer to the question they pose, unfortunately.

Here is the problem with your post, none of this implies faithlessness, as in you don't believe in the gods (except the new pope of course who is completely outside of the Catholic Doctrine). This is an acknowledgement that the gods will not choose based on what you believe in, but rather how well you adhered to the rules of their society. For example, even a devout believer in Ra is not guaranteed paradise in the Egyptian afterlife. They are all judged according to the feather because that is the method according to the priests. It wasn't even considered that you were faithless in their religion.

Egyptian Pantheism did not require the individual worship of a deity. It was assumed that the gods existed and all knew this as fact. Individual worship was not required because the entire pantheon was worshiped as a whole. You prayed to the appropriate god. But once again, this is not faithlessness.

I've spent time talking with Muslims on this issue. Christians, Jews, and Muslims are considered people of The Book. All are accounted believers, not faithless.

Not thinking Jupiter is a great guy is completely different from being faithless. The Greeks were a surprisingly religious and superstitious people. They worshiped a pantheon, not individual gods. Each god did not have their own individual afterlife area. Once again not faithlessness. All Greeks would be judged and sorted when they were dead.

The Jewish folk don't even necessarily believe in an afterlife. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/afterlife.html So bringing them up is kind of a moot point.

Faithlessness is something completely different than anything you cited as an example. Faithlessness is a lack of belief in the gods. I notice you seem to think that never praying or paying proper homage would be adjudged good behavior in the religions you cited. That is false and far from the truth. There are still rules to follow created by the gods to assure your passage into paradise in all your examples. That means the gods decide what is good and what is evil. They judge you accordingly.

Now perhaps you have a problem with the way the FR worded their afterlife punishment for the faithless because a person that dies without having chosen a patron deity isn't necessarily faithless. Faithless may have been a bad choice of words, though it does fit the concept of what they were going for with the Wall of the Faithless.

Given the FR isn't set up as a pantheon of deities servicing one group of people or a monotheistic god that all people must answer to, both having a single idea of an afterlife, as all the examples you cited, I think the solution in the FR is sufficient for their version of polytheism. The rules are clear. The punishment for breaking those rules are clear. How exactly does that differ from the other religious examples you cited? They still punish people for violating their rules, even if those violations aren't necessarily "evil" by modern standards. How would we choose between evil and good when there are so many different deities that might have different ideas of virtuous behavior? If you want something different, what exactly would you recommend in a world with no single managed afterlife or single paradise for the good? Who would make the decision of who was good and who was evil? Kelemvor? Where would he send the good? Who would protect them in the afterlife from the predations of the evil? A god being the faithless person swore no allegiance to?
 

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