D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Phantarch]

The universe is literally whatever mortals make of it.

Consider that explanation officially stolen...

 

[hawkeyefan]

[MENTION=6799436]MG.0[/MENTION] Good stuff. That's kind of what I was goi g for in my comment above, although your description is much more detailed and thought out. Very interesting.

My own campaign is also very focused on the Planes, and it involves many of the gods directly. I'm going with a chicken or the egg kind of approach to who made who...I like the freedom that ambiguity gives me. And if I don't come right out and confirm the actual "truth" then my players and their characters are less likely to be so certain that they're "right".

 

[Laznabog]

In character answer or not? I think that is a central question about faith and the afterlife period, not just in D&D/FR. For some, yes I have to imagine that would be more than acceptable, but in a setting where there IS an afterlife and it CAN match your perfect version of 'Heaven' if you wish for it to be? I would think that would be fairly terrible.

I think the idea here is that there is not an afterlife that can match OP's (or his characters') version of heaven. It sounds like he would like a altruistic god that is willing to take souls that never wants or wanted to do anything for it.

If I were a DM trying to "fix" this issue, I might add such a god to the pantheon and leave the wall in place.

 

[Phantarch]

Deity: Atheos, god of atheism
Alignment: CG
Suggested Domain: Knowledge
Symbol: A broken wall

 

[MG.0]

[MENTION=6799436]MG.0[/MENTION] Good stuff. That's kind of what I was goi g for in my comment above, although your description is much more detailed and thought out. Very interesting.

Thanks. There's more to it of course, I've been developing it for a long time. I've always been pleased with how elegantly it fits so much of the nature of D&D cosmology. It even works well with Spelljammer - The phlogiston is cut off from the other planes and out of the reach of Gods because it is the fundamental protomatter of the Prime itself: The bedrock as it were. True matter, energy, and life only exist inside the crystal spheres which came later in the Prime's formation.

It also neatly solves the issue of how elemental matter got to the Outer Planes: It never did. Everything from the Astral and further out is purely mental in nature. Arvandor doesn't really have forests, just the idea of forests. The elemental plane of Fire isn't just a bunch of Fire. It literally is the Fire on the Prime Material. In a sense looking at the planes is literally just looking at the Prime through a lens.

I may be giving away too much now.

 

[Hussar]

Very cool idea MG.0. On my phone right now so can't posrep it.

There is a point here too. My reaction to an atheist character will be very different in different settings. In Primeval Thule forex the gods are far away and disinterested. Clerics don't even receive their spells from the gods. They are more like divine wizards.

I could totally see an atheist character in that setting. Fits fine.

 

[Neonchameleon]

When super powerful mages die, reality doesn't fall apart.

That depends just how big contingency spells they have

That's why you worship the gods. Because if you don't, reality falls apart. Literally.

Woah. That's a flying leap of logic. That it's worship that would make the Gods real. That there wouldn't be a replacement for the Gods. And that nothing would come out the far end.

Why wouldn't they recognise Tiamat as part of the pantheon. Nothing those paladins are doing says, "Tiamat isn't a god, nor is she worthy of devotion". That doesn't mean we'll allow her to take over the world, but, just like in any pantheon, there are gods that people don't like very much, but are still part of the pantheon.

They certainly don't worship her. And as for thinking her worthy of devotion, I don't think they do. I think a lot of them see her as the enemy of all they hold dear.

You're confusing issues here. Recognising something as a god and as part of the pantheon does not equal patronage. Again, nothing, not one single note in Q1 says anything to cast in doubt that Lolth is a god of the drow. That she isn't my god doesn't change anything. No one has to worship all the gods equally. That's not an issue at all.

On the other hand you are trying to kick Lolth's ass.

We're not talking about simply opposed beliefs here though. You're a priest of X and I'm a paladin of Y and we have friction because of it. Fair enough. Great role play. I'm a character whose stated goal is to murder your god (which is what would happen if people stopped worshipping - if I'm right and the gods are not worthy of worship, they die) is a little more than a opposed belief.

First, you have to believe that my goal is achievable. How the hell am I going to get everyone to stop worshipping? Second, I'm not supporting a God that will try to actually murder yours. Yes, you probably see me as a crank. But that's different from seeing me as actively evil.

There is a separate but very related issue here.

It's part of the social contract in the game that you (the generic you, not you specifically) will make a character that fits with the setting. Bringing a Jedi to a Dragonlance game is considered, for the most part, to be bad form.

On the other hand you seem to be saying that bringing someone who considers The Force to be a hokey religion in a Star Wars game would be a problem.

The onus is on the player to create a character that works in that setting. In Forgotten Realms, the gods are very, very important. That's fairly obvious - Two of the first three WotC AP's deal directly with gods and cults.

And an Aspirational Atheist is a position that does take the Gods as very important. It just doesn't take the position that you should worship them. Quite the contrary.

Religion matters in Forgotten Realms. The gods are everywhere and they are very active.

Indeed. There's no point being an Aspirational Atheist on Athas.

My question is, why are you bringing an atheist character into this setting? @I'm A Banana talks about how he feels the Wall is unjust. Fair enough, but, it is a fact of the setting. Why bring in a character who's backstory and goals are so out of sync with the setting?

Here it's you that is massively out of sync with the setting. "The Gods are doing something unjust" is part of the fundamental plotting of the realms. It's Drizz't Do'Urden's backstory after all. That the God of his people is unjust so he opposes her and the society she created and walks away. If Drizz't were to have followed your advice and not judged his God to be unjust he wouldn't exist as a character (there are many that would call this an improvement, but I digress).

An actual atheist in the Forgotten Realms is basically a conspiracy theorist - and accepting the elements of the setting. An Aspirational Atheist is also accepting the setting - including the fights against overwhelming foes that are the backbone to D&D.

In a more home-brew setting where the gods are not such a major element? Sure, I could see this being very interesting. In Eberron, for example, I could easily see this working very well.

Oh, the "Let's take twisted inspiration from Eberron's religions" character I want to play someday is perfectly legitimate and much more twisted. A true believer atheist paladin of the Blood of Vol. Which is legitimate by the rules of Eberron.

The gods are distant and don't directly involve themselves in the setting. Cool beans. In Forgotten Realms, why would a cleric not find himself on the outs with his very active deity for helping someone who's stated goals are antithetical to faith?

Depends on the God. Depends on the reason. Depends on the level of DM intervention.

What's the point of playing in a published setting only to create a character that wants to tear down that setting?

Bwuh? Are you seriously telling me that Dark Sun characters shouldn't want to destroy the Sorcerer Kings? And even try and restore Athas so far as possible, turning the setting into a nice place?

 

[Mirtek]

It even works well with Spelljammer - The phlogiston is cut off from the other planes and out of the reach of Gods because it is the fundamental protomatter of the Prime itself: The bedrock as it were. True matter, energy, and life only exist inside the crystal spheres which came later in the Prime's formation.

But that's not the case in Spelljammer. Clerics cast spells in space and religions, especially Ptah (from the egypt pantheon) and Celestion (from the Greyhawk pantheon), is as popular as withing the crystal spheres. Manifesting an avatar in the phlogiston is not much different to a deity to manifesting an avatar in a crystal sphere. It even has less restrictions as other deities care less. Celestion is even said to often wander the phlogiston

This is the difference to me as well. As I noted in my first post, I am atheist, my entire extended family is not. I dont even mention religion around them, as there is literally nothing positive I can say about their world view, and the same for them about mine.

But they're just lay-worshippers, not spellcasting clergy who build their live around serving their deity

And this is your perception of that character. "The gods aren't worthy of worship" is a value statement, not insanity.

A value statement that includes and insults the clerics deity. It's like insulting a knight or samurai's liege lord to their face

Which means that almost every polytheistic PC believes that some of the Gods aren't worthy of worship. At which point it's a short step to "I've yet to run into a God that was."

And it's no step from there to "and this includes the deity that means the most important thing in your life to you"

You're a bloody hypocrite if you ask who I am to not worship Gods while you try to stop them yourself!

No, stepping back out of character, your entire argument here falls apart. Unless your Paladins really do all worship Tiamat and therefore don't want to stop all her machinations.

That's like saying a Seahawks fan is a hypocrite if he isn't also a Vikings fan or a fan or all teams.

The cleric cares if you insult his deity (and maybe some closely allied deities), he doesn't care if you insult other deities

 

[Laznabog]

Deity: Atheos, god of atheism
Alignment: CG
Suggested Domain: Knowledge
Symbol: A broken wall

Suggested symbol: path away from wall.

Atheos wouldn't presume his non-followers automatically want his "help."

 

[Neonchameleon]

A value statement that includes and insults the clerics deity. It's like insulting a knight or samurai's liege lord to their face

Depends on the knight, the samurai, and the cleric. Clerics don't normally have performance-codes-of-honour.

That's like saying a Seahawks fan is a hypocrite if he isn't also a Vikings fan or a fan or all teams.

The cleric cares if you insult his deity (and maybe some closely allied deities), he doesn't care if you insult other deities

So having deities insulted isn't the unworkable thing in the Realms that Hussar is claiming. It happens quite a bit - just not normally all at once.

Suggested symbol: path away from wall.

Atheos wouldn't presume his non-followers automatically want his "help."

That's why his priests are all Ur-Priests...