D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

Earlier in this thread, the analogy of football (American football of course) was mentioned and I'd like to expand on that analogy a bit if I may.

I'm a huge Seattle Seahawks fan. Have been since the Warren Moon days of yore. Now, say I happen to wander down to the local sports bar to watch a game. Sitting beside me, also watching the game is a Dallas Cowboys fan. Now, of course, the Cowboys fan is wrong, that's axiomatic. He's self deluded and rather sad. So, words are exchanged, possibly getting quite heated, but, before I can land my most telling point upon the end of his nose, in walks a stranger.

The stranger loudly proclaims that American football is all a load of hooey and not even a real sport. It's full of testosterone filled morons who are only pretended to play a real sport and we'd all be better off watching test matches from India.

Lowering my glass to the bar, I look into the eyes of the Cowboys fan, noting the hint of shame, because, after all, of course there is shame in those eyes, and we both proceed to chuck out this interloper on his cricket playing arse.

:D

Which brings me to the point. A cleric of Corellon and a cleric of Lolth are enemies. They will gleefully kill each other. But, even then, there is still a recognition of the pantheon. We're enemies because our respective deities are enemies. Our faiths want opposite things and we're pretty much at war with each other. But, when faced with someone who is basically saying that our faith is false, and our respective deities are not worthy of the name, how would you expect those two clerics to react? Would you honestly expect either one to willingly adventure, putting their lives in the hands of, some madman who is denying reality? Would either one go out of their way to help that individual? Would either one honestly ally with that person, who they would both agree is entirely mad?

Would you willingly hang out with someone, call them a friend, who tells you that playing D&D is for children and it's a stupid past time and your time would be better spent playing real games? Sure, you'd take them to a hospital if they broke their leg, but, would you spend more time with this person than you absolutely had to? A co-worker might belittle your hobby, but, you have no real choice about going to work alongside them day in and day out. But, would you regularly go for a drink with them?

I have non-gaming friends. Of course I do and I'm sure we all do. We just don't talk about gaming. But, that's a different thing altogether than what we're talking about. I'm talking about willingly and deliberately spending extended amounts of time with someone who will tell you, numerous times, that your hobby is stupid and a complete waste of time.

How is this unreasonable that a theist character would want to have little or nothing to do with an atheist character?

Regarding your football analogy...you've presented two options...devoted fan and rabid opponent of the sport. There are more than two views.

So in answer to your last question, it is not unreasonable for a theist character to want little or nothing to do with an atheist. That is certainly a valid interpretation.

It's simply not the only interpretation. Many examples have been provided of reasons for believers to work with non-believers.

There's more than two options. To go back to the football analogy...there are devoted fans and people who hate the sport...then there are also casual fans, folks who don't really follow the sport, but who don't mind it, there are folks who aren't really fans but whose living is made from the sport, there are people who only watch the Super Bowl. There are all manner of people and all manner of opinions about football.
 

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Would you willingly hang out with someone, call them a friend, who tells you that playing D&D is for children and it's a stupid past time and your time would be better spent playing real games? Sure, you'd take them to a hospital if they broke their leg, but, would you spend more time with this person than you absolutely had to?

I will go one better than that. I knew a guy who was a close family friend that back in the late 80's vocally insisted that playing D&D was evil and dangerous and that my mortal soul was doomed so long as I played it. He was, of course, deeply religious and could not be swayed from that belief. I thought his beliefs were ridiculous, wrong, and extremely annoying. Still, he was a long time close friend until his death.

People who started playing D&D in the 90's and up really have no idea what it could be like back then.

So.....Yes I firmly believe that two people can hold wildly different beliefs on some topics, even deeply personal important ones and still be friends, or at the very least have a mutually beneficial working arrangement.
 

Regarding your football analogy...you've presented two options...devoted fan and rabid opponent of the sport. There are more than two views.

So in answer to your last question, it is not unreasonable for a theist character to want little or nothing to do with an atheist. That is certainly a valid interpretation.

It's simply not the only interpretation. Many examples have been provided of reasons for believers to work with non-believers.

There's more than two options. To go back to the football analogy...there are devoted fans and people who hate the sport...then there are also casual fans, folks who don't really follow the sport, but who don't mind it, there are folks who aren't really fans but whose living is made from the sport, there are people who only watch the Super Bowl. There are all manner of people and all manner of opinions about football.

Yes, sure. But we're not talking about a casual unbeliever. He'd just hang around the Fugue Plane until he got snapped up by a deity anyway. We're talking about a character that deliberately opposes the notion that gods should be worshipped at all.
 

I will go one better than that. I knew a guy who was a close family friend that back in the late 80's vocally insisted that playing D&D was evil and dangerous and that my mortal soul was doomed so long as I played it. He was, of course, deeply religious and could not be swayed from that belief. I thought his beliefs were ridiculous, wrong, and extremely annoying. Still, he was a long time close friend until his death.

People who started playing D&D in the 90's and up really have no idea what it could be like back then.

So.....Yes I firmly believe that two people can hold wildly different beliefs on some topics, even deeply personal important ones and still be friends, or at the very least have a mutually beneficial working arrangement.

Dude, started playing in 1980. :)

Did he actually do anything about you playing? Attempt to interfere in any way? Did he constantly bring it up or even repeatedly?

Did he join MADD? Petition for ending the game? Was it only DND or all roleplaying? Or was it something that just got left at the door and not discussed?
 

Keep up the good fight on behalf of the gods, Hussar. Don't let the faithless doubters turn you against the gods. The Wall of the Faithless is necessary to ensure the gods maintain power and control over the universe. The unbeliever just wishes to challenge the authority and power of the Faerunian pantheon. Let these faithless miscreants that choose no side crumble away into the nothingness they believed in on the Wall.-Cleric of Tyr, God of Justice.
 

Lol. Nice [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION].

Just to be clear here. It's not the concept I'm objecting to per se. It's the concept within the Realms. There are plenty of settings where I'd have no issue whatsoever with this.

I guess I'm just a little tired of the anti-setting character. Instead of making a character that incorporates the limitations of the setting, players often try to achieve uniqueness by playing against the setting. It's hard to make your Jedi stand out in a Star Wars universe. It's easy to make your Cylon stand out in the same setting.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to play in a setting with that much background, it's better for the campaign if that character actually fits in that setting.
 

Lol. Nice [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION].

Just to be clear here. It's not the concept I'm objecting to per se. It's the concept within the Realms. There are plenty of settings where I'd have no issue whatsoever with this.

I guess I'm just a little tired of the anti-setting character. Instead of making a character that incorporates the limitations of the setting, players often try to achieve uniqueness by playing against the setting. It's hard to make your Jedi stand out in a Star Wars universe. It's easy to make your Cylon stand out in the same setting.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to play in a setting with that much background, it's better for the campaign if that character actually fits in that setting.

We share the same thinking. To me the Wall of the Faithless is The Realms form of polytheism and The Wall of the Faithless is very much a part of Realmsian polytheism. Ancient religions had all kinds of crazy notions about the afterlife, gods, and the like. I don't see why The Wall of the Faithless is any different. All gods in D&D are is all the crazy things you see in ancient religions brought to life in a fantasy setting making them "real" in the context of the world. If the Wall of the Faithless were removed it would be removing one of the unique elements of Realmsian polytheism.

If the OP wants to come up with his own version of how the gods go about judging people in his version of the Realms because he feels it better fits his idea of heroic fantasy, to each his own. As far as the Wall of the Faithless being a problem in a heroic fantasy game, I don't have any problem with it. Contrary to some of the claims I've seen on this thread, the ancient gods demanded worship. If you didn't pay them their proper respect, you paid a price. Sometimes in the living world, sometimes in the afterlife world. The Wall of the Faithless is The Realms version of the price for not choosing to follow a god. To me it is no different from gravity or the sun rising. It's part of the world and how it works. Neither good nor evil, just a force that ensures the worship of the gods by the mortals residing in The Realms. It is a spiritual protection racket, like most religions have always been. The entire idea of priests and gods having control of your life and soul is what drove religion and religious power for time immemorial. It just so happens that spiritual protection racket is real in D&D worlds and in The Realms the Wall is a part of that racket.

And this thread would be a lot more entertaining if people were playing Realms characters arguing the morality of the wall. Then at least we would be getting some fun role-play concerning The Realms.
 

Dude, started playing in 1980. :)
That wasn't really directed at you. Just a general statment about what playing D&D in the 80's could be like.
Did he actually do anything about you playing? Attempt to interfere in any way? Did he constantly bring it up or even repeatedly?
He brought it up occasionally. There were some heated discussions.
Did he join MADD? Petition for ending the game? Was it only DND or all roleplaying? Or was it something that just got left at the door and not discussed?
I don't know if he joined MADD, but I wouldn't have been surprised. Pretty sure his whole church was vocal about it. It was only D&D, as roleplaying games other than D&D weren't well known outside certain circles, as you probably know.
 

Sorry, my bad. (wow, awful pun) I meant BADD (Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons). Joining MADD is a good thing. :D

Now, my question is this. Would you have been willing to spend every day with this guy, for weeks, possibly months on end, trusting that his actions will not impede your gaming?
 

Sorry, my bad. (wow, awful pun) I meant BADD (Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons). Joining MADD is a good thing. :D

Now, my question is this. Would you have been willing to spend every day with this guy, for weeks, possibly months on end, trusting that his actions will not impede your gaming?

Oh yeah that's right, it was called BADD.

We spent a lot of time together working on cars. While he didn't physically try to stop me from playing he made it very clear what his opinion was, as did I. I don't know if he did any campaigning to ban it or anything like that. He may have for all I know.

Personally I think something like that should be possible in the Realms too...a middle ground where a character who feels the Wall is immoral can coexist with "normal" folk. He probably isn't yelling his beliefs in everyone's ear all the time, likely out of self-preservation knowing he could get lynched. But that doesn't mean he's absolutely silent about it either. Perhaps he waits and bides his time, seeking out others with similar beliefs or a sympathetic ear and perhaps looking for ways to make a difference...maybe even by trying to seek an audience with a god to plead his case. Or if it's more than the Wall, and he feels the gods don't deserve any worship at all, he'd try to seek out whatever he considers proof. All of this I think can be played reasonably within a party containing devout characters without lampshading anything at all.
 
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