[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[dd.stevenson]

I'm really not seeing the issue here. Take teleporting through windows. What's the difference from simply opening the shutter. If your medieval people are so rich that every window actually has glass so high quality that you can see clearly through it, I would find that far more anachronistic and unbelievable than blink elves.

Heck, stained glass windows or waxed paper windows fix that problem.

If an assassin is within 25 feet of the king, somebody has already seriously screwed up. He can just move and kill the king. He doesn't need teleport.

Vs pike formations runs into that whole 1/short rest problem. Sure they avoid you once. But you simply press forward. They can't do it again.

DDNFan, what adventure are you talking about?

To be clear, I'm not suggesting there's an issue. I'm just having a little fun thinking out the world building implications, like some other posters in this thread.

The 4E edition war train sailed a long time ago, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some things, admittedly, are not necessarily well-modeled in the rules. That makes it harder to see the implications.

OAs/AoOs are based on a real life thing- the ability to see movement and react. Humans are very, very good at picking out movement, even stealthy, slow movement. Handy for noticing predators. Teleporting likely wouldn't trigger the same kind of reaction.

It has been said, for instance, that a fit man can charge @25' in the time it takes most humans (not quick-draw specialists) to draw and aim a gun. In that time, the intended victim notices the movement, assesses the intent to harm, and begins the process of arming himself. The 30' teleport- being instantaneous- both increases that distance AND removes the initial visual stimulus: your attacker doesn't move towards you, he is simply there. He doesn't alert you by stepping on a twig or accidentally trigger that tripwire you set up, either.

If you're a bodyguard or sentry, this is bad news.

Imagine having to cross a guarded greathall to continue on your mission. It's possible that you might assess the risk of attempting to cross is to great, and you might seek a different path; your mission might even be thwarted completely.

An eladrin might simply be able to 'port across without a problem.


The whole curtain thing? A conventional sneak would have to open the curtain and physically move beyond it, a potentially very obvious thing. The eladrin needs only to pull it back a centimeter or so.

Vs pike formation isn't a problem. Pike formations depend on several rows of pikemen holding a 2-handed weapon out, so that anyone attempting to get in among them faces lots of spear points. Each row protects the man in front of him. Very hard for an attacker to avoid getting poked. But a single armed eladrin could simply teleport to the interior of the formation, in among people with their hands full. As soon as they start to drop pikes to deal with the killer in their midst, the periphery of the formation is instantly diminished in strength. If he can't fight his way out, he's toast and the square reforms...until the next one blinks in. And if they popped in in teams or waves, the formation would fail quickly.

Shield walls face the same problem.

How many targets could a trained archery formation drop in 30' before they have to either prepare for HTH combat or break & run? What happens when that last 30' can be covered in the blink of an eye?

 

[Neonchameleon]

The following is an account from the Blink Wars:

It was the arrow slits that did us in.

We made 'em so our archers could fire out, under the protection of our stonemasons. We made 'em to keep our people safe from the outside. But the blinkers...they go wherever they want, wherever they can see. Just two of 'em made it into our bailey, and the archers never knew what hit 'em.

The rest of us had some warning, but we could never tell what direction they came from. Second story windows in a lot of our buildings meant the emotionless bastards could enter through the door on one side, and come down through the bedrooms behind. There was no wall, no defense against them, they were like rain, like air, finding every crack and flowing in and running us through.

They knew our layout, too. Of course they did. A thief of theirs found the plans for the town in the belongings of the chief engineer, robbing his house. They waited 'till he was gone, and simply blunk into his house, ransacked the place, and, five minutes later, blunk out. There was no sign of forced entry, of course, so when he came back, he came back to one of those things in his house. Guy never had a chance to draw his blade.

The worst part about this is that we knew what they could do. We had seen it, just hadn't really thought of it. When our people caught that thief, they ripped out her eyes -- can't blink to where you can't see, right? We thought that would stop them, serve as a warning. I don't know that it didn't serve as a provocation. Looks like they don't take kindly to them that thwart the blink.

When the war was joined in earnest, the pikemen were useless. Don't really matter how big your spear is if your target can just *poof* behind its point. Shields, too, not the best - little twinkly sparkle-jerks can get behind you with a nod of their head and a woosh of leaves and grass.

Listen, you can't STOP these guys. Not 'less you rip out their eyes. That's why I wear this necklace here -- eyeballs of the bastards, harvested from those I kill. I hear they're the reason goblins live in warrens, too: those poor blighters have been their victims from time immemorial, and twisty tunnels limit the damage they can do. Still, I don't know that the goblins weren't once folks like us -- fighting these critters turns you INTO goblins, making you hide in warrens, seek the security of darkness....we'll all be goblins sooner or later.
​

Bloody hell, old timer. You really have been here too long. You must have been in the fight in what? Sixty eight? Seventy two? Let me buy you a drink and tell you how we do things now.

The great secret was worked out by Charles Martel. Something the blinkers had been trying to keep from us. After blinking the blinkers need to rest for five minutes before they can do it again. Not wait, rest. Which means that you may think they have you by the balls, but you've got five minutes to cut the blinkers hands off.

There's a reason they now call us Martel's Mules. In blinker territory we need a double wall. The first one lets the blinkers in. The second keeps them there. They can't back out

By the end of the Conquest, the Blinkers were using their Blinking for one thing. Saving their blinking lives. They ain't as tough as we are and ain't any faster. If they blink in against soldiers, any they don't kill shout for their mates, and they're going to be giving the glassy stare. Or sentries behind half walls, the blinkers are then trapped. 'Course it's still annoying when a blinker blinks away for the rooftops. But we're humans, and we're tougher and more adaptable than they are.

As for blinking onto statues, someone's been telling you tall stories, old man. Oh, sure, when the young ones get drunk they sometimes try. And then either fall off or spend the next five or ten minutes hanging on. Sometimes screaming. Only the ones who can balance well enough on top of a statue that waiting there for five minutes isn't a problem can really do that?

Eladrin homes not having stairs? That's crap for the tourists. Same way we serve sheep eyeballs to them. You really think that anyone wants to spend five minutes resting just to save climbing a flight of stairs? Unless the only purpose is "Prove you're an Eladrin."

Me? Have I faced them? Sure. Was even a raw sentry when a couple of blinkers tried to shank me. I screamed for help, and shield-rushed one of them so they were both the same side of me. Just needed to stay alive. And they couldn't blink away. We captured both of them, and kept them with bags over their heads before putting them in The Compound. Quite pleasant there - but thirty feet of spikes stop any plans they have. 'Cept the one who was smart enough to build a hang glider. Took eight arrows to bring that blinker down.

Won't say Operation Shuteye was easy. You needed to be alert. We lost almost as many as we killed, not counting civvies. But Blinkers bleed better than they breed. And humans are too stupid to give up. And we learned caution. So did they. Couldn't stop suicide missions, but suicide missions without wizards didn't kill many, and ones with

Blinking against people expecting it is a one way trip. Even against a prepared house - and even Eladrin Rooms that are meant to be seen from outside but have no way out are out of fashion these days. They can blink in or they can blink out. Not both. Smart ones choose to blink out. Which makes them no more threatening than a human thief.

I'll say this for them. Their kids do insane things climbing and balancing over things. Because they are so much safer if they can Blink to safety. So the Eladrin Circus is a thing to see. Both the mages and the sheer skill of the performers.

​

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Hm. Some 4E questions. Does teleportation preserve momentum? How much weight can a person carry while teleporting? Does line of sight include magically aided vision?

1. No.
2. Whatever they could carry normally, not sure strict limits are set.
3. No, you have to be able to trace actual LOS on the battlemat, as it were (something a lot of people are ignoring).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Some things, admittedly, are not necessarily well-modeled in the rules. That makes it harder to see the implications.

OAs/AoOs are based on a real life thing- the ability to see movement and react. Humans are very, very good at picking out movement, even stealthy, slow movement. Handy for noticing predators. Teleporting likely wouldn't trigger the same kind of reaction.

It has been said, for instance, that a fit man can charge @25' in the time it takes most humans (not quick-draw specialists) to draw and aim a gun. In that time, the intended victim notices the movement, assesses the intent to harm, and begins the process of arming himself. The 30' teleport- being instantaneous- both increases that distance AND removes the initial visual stimulus: your attacker doesn't move towards you, he is simply there. He doesn't alert you by stepping on a twig or accidentally trigger that tripwire you set up, either.

If you're a bodyguard or sentry, this is bad news.

Imagine having to cross a guarded greathall to continue on your mission. It's possible that you might assess the risk of attempting to cross is to great, and you might seek a different path; your mission might even be thwarted completely.

An eladrin might simply be able to 'port across without a problem.


The whole curtain thing? A conventional sneak would have to open the curtain and physically move beyond it, a potentially very obvious thing. The eladrin needs only to pull it back a centimeter or so.

Vs pike formation isn't a problem. Pike formations depend on several rows of pikemen holding a 2-handed weapon out, so that anyone attempting to get in among them faces lots of spear points. Each row protects the man in front of him. Very hard for an attacker to avoid getting poked. But a single armed eladrin could simply teleport to the interior of the formation, in among people with their hands full. As soon as they start to drop pikes to deal with the killer in their midst, the periphery of the formation is instantly diminished in strength. If he can't fight his way out, he's toast and the square reforms...until the next one blinks in. And if they popped in in teams or waves, the formation would fail quickly.

Shield walls face the same problem.

How many targets could a trained archery formation drop in 30' before they have to either prepare for HTH combat or break & run? What happens when that last 30' can be covered in the blink of an eye?

This is much more useful

A bit inaccurate in places. Eladrin can teleport as a move action. This means it takes time and a bit of focus; they can actually run faster than they can teleport - but teleporting doesn't trigger OAs. They also can't teleport into occupied spaces. The middle of a pike block is safe, the back of a shield wall isn't.

Of course both pike blocks and shield walls are very vulnerable to mages. Open order skirmish combat is what's used in 4e most of the time as there are a lot of people who can massacre close packed infantry. And teleporting would be useful in two ways - first to withdraw tired people so the Eladrin can reinforce each other more easily, and secondly to start skirmishing with the enemy's reserves for a massive push. On the other hand Eladrin aren't actually great line infantry other than this trick - humans, dwarves, and orcs are all better. But it would be really vicious to have a couple of Eladrin squads attached to a human company.

The basic point for dealing with Eladrin sneaks is to make sure you build in such a way they can't see past the next chokepoint. Sure they can cross the hall into that doorway. But what's beyond it? Is it safe? Or have they just treed themselves and can't get out. It's useful but not breaking.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They also can't teleport into occupied spaces. The middle of a pike block is safe, the back of a shield wall isn't.

While at is true of the game, I was thinking of what the effects of a "real world" eladrin T-port would work like, not how the game models it. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that kind of the point of the original post?

Besides, who said they had to teleport into the occupied space? You're thinking like a ground pounder. Their ability works in all 3 dimensions, so they could easily teleport about 7' over the formation and do just fine. Maybe even carrying a couple bags of rocks...

DEATH FROM ABOVE!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

While at is true of the game, I was thinking of what the effects of a "real world" eladrin T-port would work like, not how the game models it. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that kind of the point of the original post?

Besides, who said they had to teleport into the occupied space? You're thinking like a ground pounder. Their ability works in all 3 dimensions, so they could easily teleport about 7' over the formation and do just fine. Maybe even carrying a couple bags of rocks...

DEATH FROM ABOVE!

If you're going to look at a "real world" port, you have to start with the restrictions in the game.

You can't teleport into an occupied square - what's the real-world version of that? You can't teleport all that close to someone or something. You're going to need a few feet of space around you, presumably because your entirely subconscious Eladrin "teleport-sense" stops you from teleporting into a wall and dying or into the butler and getting a tea tray stuck through your chest.

You can teleport into mid-air, but you are then going to immediately fall in an uncontrolled way - on to MEN WEARING METAL AND CARRYING SHARP METAL SPIKES. If you somehow think that is a good idea because you have a bag of rocks (which will not have time to accelerate much, and which will have a totally unfocused impact, actually bouncing off to a large degree, so probably won't even cause serious injury unless you hit someone with no helmet on the head, or their neck is at the wrong angle, just incapacitation - you'd be better off with a single large rock, and even that wouldn't be great), then you are not the master of military tactics you think yourself to be! Especially as you will be now lying on the floor next to some pissed off dudes with swords/spears.

So great, you've managed to make your teleport into an almost-certainly-suicidal death leap which will probably not even kill anyone but you...

Is that a win?

We've already been over how there is no formation, in most cases, too.

 

[Neonchameleon]

While at is true of the game, I was thinking of what the effects of a "real world" eladrin T-port would work like, not how the game models it. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that kind of the point of the original post?

Besides, who said they had to teleport into the occupied space? You're thinking like a ground pounder. Their ability works in all 3 dimensions, so they could easily teleport about 7' over the formation and do just fine. Maybe even carrying a couple bags of rocks...

DEATH FROM ABOVE!

As Ruin Explorer has pointed out you aren't looking at the actual restrictions. Also Death From Above is a suicide mission - and less effective than grenades/alchemists fire being thrown anyway.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You can teleport into mid-air, but you are then going to immediately fall in an uncontrolled way - on to MEN WEARING METAL AND CARRYING SHARP METAL SPIKES.

Spikes, which- in order for the pike formation to function properly in battle- ALL HAVE TO BE POINTING IN THE SAME PLANE. IOW, none will be pointing up when the formation is in battle because they have to be pointing at advancing foes or they'll be defenseless AND without offensive punch. The airspace overhead is clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo406jm2vF8&sns=em

(Note the center gap, BTW.)

...In response to the Burgundian threat the Swiss developed a tactic that could be used by mobile, lightly armored soldiers carrying only a long, steel-tipped pole for defence. However, the tactic depended on well trained and drilled troops who could move in unison while in close formation. While the use of pointed sticks to fend off cavalry was common throughout the Middle Ages, such barricades were usually fixed in position. The Swiss pikemen were to bring a change of paradigm by reintroducing the offensive element into pike warfare.

A pike square generally consisted of about 100 men in a 10×10 formation. While on the move, the pike would be carried vertically. However, the troops were drilled to be able to point their pikes in any direction while stationary, with the men in the front of the formation kneeling to allow the men in the center or back to point their pikes over their heads. While stationary, the staff of each pike could be butted against the ground, giving it resistance against attack.

(from Wikipedia)

So, the pikemen were lightly armored, and typically had no weapons beyond the pike and possibly a knife. A fully armed & armored infantryman teleporting into their midst would be like a wolf among sheep.

If you somehow think that is a good idea because you have a bag of rocks (which will not have time to accelerate much, and which will have a totally unfocused impact, actually bouncing off to a large degree, so probably won't even cause serious injury unless you hit someone with no helmet on the head...

Have you ever had 100lbs dropped on you from 7' up? When I was sparring in NERO, I damn near concussed a 330lb bouncer with my 3lb pillow on a 6' stick. And he partially blocked the strike. Unexpected impact from above with an adult's mass might very well snap a neck.

And the bags 'o rock in either hand- even from just that height, a 10+lb weight will still be capable of concussing someone, even through a helm.

Besides- to return to the mechanics of the game- where is it written that a teleporting eladrin loses control after he pops back in?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Spikes, which- in order for the pike formation to function properly in battle- ALL HAVE TO BE POINTING IN THE SAME PLANE.

And even if they don't do that, that's not actually true. The ones in front just have to be lower than the ones in the rear.

This is a tactic comparable to that of the Rodeleros - it will take the first couple of pike blocks who meet it by surprise, and after that they will adapt (or would if forming a pike block in a D&D setting wasn't near suicidal given how effective wizards/battlefield artillery is).

IOW, none will be pointing up when the formation is in battle because they have to be pointing at advancing foes or they'll be defenseless AND without offensive punch. The airspace overhead is clear.

Did you watch your video? The pikes in the pike square at one point formed a hedgehog, with the points pointing out all round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo406jm2vF8&sns=em

(Note the center gap, BTW.)

5 foot by 5 foot? And that was not a pike block people could teleport over so they didn't need to adapt to it. Humans aren't stupid; any trick can be countered.

So, the pikemen were lightly armored, and typically had no weapons beyond the pike and possibly a knife. A fully armed & armored infantryman teleporting into their midst would be like a wolf among sheep.

It might be another reason that in D&D land halberdiers would be vastly superior to pikemen.

Besides- to return to the mechanics of the game- where is it written that a teleporting eladrin loses control after he pops back in?

Falling rules. Attack or stand up...