[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[DDNFan]

KM, if you look at the quote in the OP;



I think this is what AA is talking about when he points to editions warring. I have no problems with the idea that Eladrin teleport has some setting implications. Fair enough. But this? Really? The thread is over ten pages now and the biggest world changing thing so far is being able to break up pike formations. I get that there are setting implications. But, so far, no one has been able to give examples of anything needing great mental gymnastics.

If world changing elements were ranked from 1 to 10, with Flumphs being a 1 and divine magic being a 10, I'd say this is maybe a 2. If that. Certainly not something that I'd expect a group to get flummoxed by. I mean, there are flying elves which would have a much greater setting impact than someone who can cross a medium sized room once every five minutes.

My quote wasn't editing warring, please. Just because I criticized a city's poor defenses in the Fey campaign book that happened to be written for 4th edition?

It would be like visiting a city of giants and seeing the doorways were only 5 feet high. Total design failure. I wouldn't expect to see any torches lit in a drow city either.

All of which have little to do with rules, except in a tangential way, the fact that the adventures must be written with copious stat blocks in mind is actually one of the criticisms of earlier editions listed in the interview, which makes adventure design easier and therefore better. The less system speak and stats you have to worry about when designing an adventure, the more time you can spend thinking about design implications and making it have a coherent vision and story that fit well together.

This is just as much a criticism of 3rd edition, if you think about it. 3rd was hard to DM as it required a lot of prep time and a lot of work. 4th reduced that but 5th takes it even further with bounded accuracy and the fact that adventures only refer to Basic D&D content, and whatever they chose to include, instead of making them do all kinds of balancing acts that in practice end up being not very balanced anyway. (Example, Mark of X feats from Forgotten realms).

Wizards making adventure designers focus on Basic D&D as Core, is a conscious design decision to allow them to focus on what they do best, which is write good adventures and settings that draw in the player, instead of this and that combo interaction with such and such feats or magic item properties. When you can design a game that doesn't cater directly do the players being there, but rather treats them as inherently no different than any other creature in the land, that sets a tone of realism that results in greater immersion and therefore consequently more fun.

Watch this video if you care to learn more in depth about this facet of open world gaming and is quite relevant to the interview from which this thread was forked:

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/the-point-why-watch-dogs-world-doesn-t-feel-real/2300-6419045/

Like the video says, if you can see the puppet strings or the breadcrumbs laid out for you, you are more likely to lose interest due to your immersion being lost. A fantasy world that feels believable, even despite it having flying elves or dragons in it, is not impossible, but you have to have that as a design goal and the system mechanics of 5th edition, being simpler and more streamlined with less rigid structure, leads to a more rewarding game experience. At least for me. As I said, everyone at my table quit from that Eladrin city, it was just too obvious that everything was just a carboard hollywood set and laid out for the players amusement, as if they're the center of the world. It's part of the design conceit of many adventures, that after a few years, got old and we simply lost interest in playing the game entirely. I looked at my character sheet and saw mostly powers and algebra and no real character development, and this in turn made me less attached to my character, even further exaggerating the highly unbelievably contrived adventure we decided to pursue at Paragon levels. Then we all just said nearly unanimously, you know what? This isn't working, we're done.

 

[billd91]

Like the video says, if you can see the puppet strings or the breadcrumbs laid out for you, you are more likely to lose interest due to your immersion being lost. A fantasy world that feels believable, even despite it having flying elves or dragons in it, is not impossible, but you have to have that as a design goal and the system mechanics of 5th edition, being simpler and more streamlined with less rigid structure, leads to a more rewarding game experience. At least for me. As I said, everyone at my table quit from that Eladrin city, it was just too obvious that everything was just a carboard hollywood set and laid out for the players amusement, as if they're the center of the world. It's part of the design conceit of many adventures, that after a few years, got old and we simply lost interest in playing the game entirely. I looked at my character sheet and saw mostly powers and algebra and no real character development, and this in turn made me less attached to my character, even further exaggerating the highly unbelievably contrived adventure we decided to pursue at Paragon levels. Then we all just said nearly unanimously, you know what? This isn't working, we're done.

I think I can see where you're coming from. I feel that if the game aspect is too up front in an RPG, it's like exposing the man behind the curtain (to use a Wizard of Oz-ism). And boom, there goes the magic.

 

[Ahnehnois]

there goes the magic.

Well, that's an ironic statement.

 

[Hussar]

/snipThis isn't working, we're done.

DDNFan, could you actually post some examples though? What design flaws? What constitutes 5' Doorways in a Giant's Castle to you?

Since you haven't actually posted any actual examples, it's really hard to have any real discussion on this point. At this moment, all I have is your say so that there are these giant design flaws. Fair enough, but, could I see them please?

BTW, [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], I LOVE the idea of the reason for species tension is the eye gouging thing. Very cool. Heck, it might not even be true (or true anymore) but, even the rumour of that is enough to start racial tensions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks!

It is the kind of thing that has happened many time when human cultures alien to each other have met, and stories live longer than their tellers...

It waas also this kind of thing that led to tensions between Minbari and humans in Babylon 5.

 

[Hussar]

Heh. I did have that same thought. And props for the Bab5 reference.

And, just to be clear. I have zero issues with [MENTION=6776483]DDNFan[/MENTION] not liking Eladrin teleport. That's fine. My beef is that I still have no idea what he's actually talking about. I just want to see some specifics so maybe I could use it in my games.

 

[DDNFan]

Heh. I did have that same thought. And props for the Bab5 reference.

And, just to be clear. I have zero issues with @DDNFan not liking Eladrin teleport. That's fine. My beef is that I still have no idea what he's actually talking about. I just want to see some specifics so maybe I could use it in my games.

This entire thread is full of specifics as to why you cannot design an Eladrin home city in exactly the same as a halfling or human one.

You really have to try HARD not to see it. I mentioned several examples that bugged my group already, such as windows and keyholes and city gates and guard towers under thirty feet in the air, arrow slits, etc.

Dude, come on.

 

[tomBitonti]

First, a note on momentum: D&D doesn't have it.

Teleport onto a moving train: No problem, you are moving with the train.

Hop from one train moving 12 squares/sec to one moving in the opposite direction with the same speed: No problem.

Teleport within a train moving 12 squares/sec: Still no problem.

Motion doesn't occur except at specific discrete events.

Second, a question of whether we are looking at the by-the-rules implication, or looking more extensively, with the consequence that additional considerations must be considered.

For example, how does the actor know when a teleport is within range? On the battle map, you just count squares. In a realistic environment, an estimation must be made. Then, what happens if your estimate is wrong? Does the teleport not happen? Does it happen, but only taking you to your maximum range? Or, do you have a spider-tingly sense which tells you before-hand if teleport is in range?

As an initial result: Jaunts (short teleports) to locations not previously visited could be very dangerous. Not too much of a problem jaunting down a hallway or across an open field. But very dangerous in a dynamic environment, or in a location with uncertain terrain. For example, teleporting into a massed melee would put you in the path of the combatants for about the first second after your jaunt. The combatants simply could not react in time to adjust their actions quicker than that. Not great for the particular combatant who just lunged into your space, but really not great for you either. Also, jaunting across a chasm to uncertain footing on the other side could put you on unstable ground, leading to a fall. Or, as previously mentioned, a jaunt through a partially mirrored window could leave you trapped, or could lead to a fall, or any number of traps.

As a second result: Personal space become very tenuous. Pick-pockets and suicide bombers would have a field day. Assassins, too.

As a third result: A lot of previously impassable terrain features become non-issues (although, still a problem for portage, for anything not within the weight limit). A rushing stream or short chasm (with a clear and safe spot on the opposite side) would no longer be a barrier.

I'm trying to figure out what which was previously impossible becomes possible when folks can jaunt. Still thinking about that...

Thx!

TomB

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If we're following the rules, I think we need to ... follow the rules. Fey Step seems risk-free when teleporting to something you can see. You cannot teleport to something you can't see (either due to blindness, or because there's a barrier between you and it). Otherwise the way PCs use the ability is completely different from other the ability works in the fiction.

For example, how does the actor know when a teleport is within range? On the battle map, you just count squares. In a realistic environment, an estimation must be made. Then, what happens if your estimate is wrong? Does the teleport not happen? Does it happen, but only taking you to your maximum range? Or, do you have a spider-tingly sense which tells you before-hand if teleport is in range?

I'd like the fiction to be close to how players play. In most games, you can count out precisely (or just guess really well) how far you can teleport, and take no time guessing. (Unless that's why it takes a move action and not a minor action. Maybe most of that time is just taken up doing calculations.)

But very dangerous in a dynamic environment, or in a location with uncertain terrain. For example, teleporting into a massed melee would put you in the path of the combatants for about the first second after your jaunt. The combatants simply could not react in time to adjust their actions quicker than that.

I'm not too sure about this. Fey Step does nothing for Stealth by itself. If you Fey Step more than 2 squares, you're still taking a penalty to Stealth. So I think if you're about to teleport next to a creature they get some warning. (That explains why you don't get combat advantage out of using Fey Step. The teleport isn't really surprising. Teleporting out of a bush to gank someone is just as stealthy as rushing out of the bush to gank them.)

Also, jaunting across a chasm to uncertain footing on the other side could put you on unstable ground, leading to a fall. Or, as previously mentioned, a jaunt through a partially mirrored window could leave you trapped, or could lead to a fall, or any number of traps.

I think all of these are valid, and things that could come up in a game within the rules. Not 100% sure about the partially mirrored window, but all the other ones.

As a second result: Personal space become very tenuous. Pick-pockets and suicide bombers would have a field day. Assassins, too.

Pickpockets get an advantage, but I don't think they get much of one. Fey Step isn't stealthy, so they're not likely to teleport next to their victim and then run away. Rather, they might steal and then (non-stealthily) vanish. Of course, they can only teleport a distance they could have run faster than, and it's not stealthy. The eladrin thief would need to plan carefully. You can be easily robbed around a low wall (since an eladrin could grab your belongings and then teleport over the wall, while the victim needs to climb said wall, which is going to be pretty slow). That's not terribly different from wanting to avoid bushes along roadsides due to fear of banditry, you just have one more thing to fear.

Suicide bombers would have a field day, but long-lived eladrin aren't very likely to do that. Also, no need. Slip beside the victim in a thick crowd. Drop the bomb. Bamf! You aren't moving fast, but you can easily teleport past the crowd (or part of the crowd). Instead of a really explosive bomb, though, I think an eladrin would use a powerful single-target attack, such as attaching a nasty venomous monster to the victim instead. (Also, does D&D have bombs?)

An eladrin assassin would be pretty terrifying. They can only do it once, but they could stab you with a poisoned weapon and then teleport away. Again, the ability is not insurmountable, since it's not stealthy and it's not fast. It is pretty damn good when there's difficult terrain, hedges, low walls, crowds, or anything else that might stop the bodyguards from taking revenge.

Eladrin archers... ow. Every archer might pick another safe position to teleport too, so when enemies get in their faces they can teleport away. Admittedly human archers would try to do the same thing (depending on training, circumstances, etc) but eladrin can reliably pull this off once each (between short rests). Eladrin archers are elusive. A minor advantage on a flat featureless plain (your opponent can charge as fast or faster than you can teleport), a bigger advantage in difficult terrain, and an even bigger advantage if you can teleport to a room with a small window across the street.

As a third result: A lot of previously impassable terrain features become non-issues (although, still a problem for portage, for anything not within the weight limit). A rushing stream or short chasm (with a clear and safe spot on the opposite side) would no longer be a barrier.

It's a half barrier. You can teleport one way and get trapped. That happened in a game of mine, twice. (I was a player.) We had a very unwise eladrin wizard. One time he teleported across a stream to use Burning Hands on some orcs hiding in bushes, and then (predictably) screamed for help as orcs came from behind other bushes and tried to kill him. Worse, he was on that side of the stream by himself and out of my PC cleric's healing range. *Sigh* In another battle, he teleported into a prison call and burned up some bad guys there, but couldn't get out until he took a short rest.

Presuming an army of eladrin, yes a lot of natural barriers can be bypassed, but you can stop them by using two layers of barriers, or laying some sort of trap, so their inability to get back across the barrier really hurts them. I guess I'm saying that Fey Step is an advantage, and a potent one, but pretty soon everyone else learns about the benefits and weaknesses.

 

[Hussar]

This entire thread is full of specifics as to why you cannot design an Eladrin home city in exactly the same as a halfling or human one.

You really have to try HARD not to see it. I mentioned several examples that bugged my group already, such as windows and keyholes and city gates and guard towers under thirty feet in the air, arrow slits, etc.

Dude, come on.

But all of these have been shown to be relatively important. Teleport is 25 feet. Any second story tower is inaccessible because of lack of LOS. Unless the room beyond is lit, you cannot teleport through a keyhole, which at best saves you having to pick the lock. Hopefully there is no one in the next room because now he's locked in by himself and can't teleport out. And who cares about ground floor windows? If you are close enough to see in and teleport, you are close enough to climb in.

It sounds a lot more like a poor understanding of the mechanics to me.