FORKED - Game Fundamentals - Player Trust, Your GM, and Cake

Yeah, that's always been the problem with D&D, not enough rules.

PS I am being sarcastic.

In some of the older editions, I think that's true. Well, also the effectiveness of the rules that WERE there. Instead you got things like the weapon type vs armor type table that appeared to be complication for the sake of complication.
 

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Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I'm curious what about my story made me seem untrustworthy as a player?

Here's where my trust in you as a player goes out the door:

I was smart enough to do the math and realized that you needed to start gaming the DMs. Bob might not like grappling, so you didn't use it in his game because he's make it hard for you. James might believe that fire spreads at great speeds, so if you set anything on fire in his game, you could expect that before you had time to leave, the entire building you were in would be down on you. Sara might really like spellcasters and be willing to allow nearly any interesting plan you could come up with for a spell. So using a magic missile to cause an entire building to fall on an enemy killing them instantly would work in that game and was a better idea than using a fireball.

You're not helping the game along with looking up spells, rules, whatever it takes to help keep the DM on track. You're taking advantage of him and the gaps in his knowledge, ability, and judgment.

Your trust in a game master seems to be in his or her competence with the rules set and judgment. To earn my trust as a player, you need to find non-cynical ways to cope with any lack of competence or judgment. The way you phrased your post, it sounds like your response is rather cynical.
 

In some of the older editions, I think that's true. Well, also the effectiveness of the rules that WERE there. Instead you got things like the weapon type vs armor type table that appeared to be complication for the sake of complication.

More like complication for the sake of realism. And they really are a serious bone tossed in the realism direction away from gamism. Using a fist against platemail armor? Sure should be a lot more difficult to injure someone than using a pick, right? But not necessarily fun to include in a game.

They certainly weren't for the sake of complication. But realism is complicated, so complicated that games usually focus on a certain verisimilitude rather than actual realism. A "truthiness" rather than truth. And so those rules are gone. Optional and much stripped down in 2e, gone since...
 

I don't want to start an edition war, but I think one possible factor of the "Edition Wars" is the feeling by players on both sides that we don't trust the system in question--regardless of GM or player skill--to maximize our investment.

Perhaps. But, if so, folks are being horribly unfair to themselves and others. The system is merely a framework. It doesn't provide the experience - it provides something upon which an experience may be built by a GM and other players.

In today's world, we simply don't have the time to spend 3-5 hours a week doing something that really isn't providing us the gratification/reward/enjoyment we want.

Perhaps. But failing to give any entertainment (a movie, a book, a game, a new recipe for goulash) sufficient time and dedication without mucking with it too much is a sure way to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.

Ultimately, I think the more strict codification of rules aspects (both 3.x and 4e do this in varying degrees) is a reaction to this phenomenon.

Not only that, not by a long shot. The more strict codification seems to me to pretty clearly be more a reaction to how the face of games (not rpgs, but games in general) has changed since the 1970s. There's a great deal more science and understanding of how games work, and what makes a good game experience. RPG designers have brought the knowledge gained from other venues to the table.
 

Here's where my trust in you as a player goes out the door:



You're not helping the game along with looking up spells, rules, whatever it takes to help keep the DM on track. You're taking advantage of him and the gaps in his knowledge, ability, and judgment.

Your trust in a game master seems to be in his or her competence with the rules set and judgment. To earn my trust as a player, you need to find non-cynical ways to cope with any lack of competence or judgment. The way you phrased your post, it sounds like your response is rather cynical.

Perhaps it is cynical. But, for a large number of groups, it's rather well earned cynicism.

For one, DM's who insist on playing "fast and loose" with the rules, IME, almost NEVER do so in favour of the players. "Fast and loose" with the rules (again in my experience) is typically shorthand for, "I can't be bothered to learn the actual rules of the game, so, I'll just go with whatever screws you best at the time."

Now, I know this isn't true of all DM's. I know that. But, again, IME, it's true more often than it's not.

Heck, I just ran into it a week or so ago in a group I just left. 4e Fighter falls in a 20 foot pit with a rope dangling down. Fighter starts to climb the rope. Succeeds in the first round. Succeeds in the second round. DM rules he's now half way up the rope.

"Pardon?" I say. "But, isn't he out? Successful climb is half speed."

"Maybe you should run the game" is the answer.

To me, this type of event occurs FAR more often than DM ruling going the other direction.

So, yeah, in groups where the DM is both intent on not bothering to RTFM AND is most likely going to make a "gut" ruling that screws me, I'm most certainly going to game the GM. Why wouldn't I? If I point out the actual rules, I'm a rules lawyering jerk and if I go with what the GM wants, I'm going to fail every time.

I can totally see where Oakheart is coming from with this.
 


HYou're not helping the game along with looking up spells, rules, whatever it takes to help keep the DM on track. You're taking advantage of him and the gaps in his knowledge, ability, and judgment.
I don't think he's taking advantage of them. Assuming these people are his friends, I think it's just a matter of knowing your friends. For example, if one of your friends hates slasher movies, then you don't suggest seeing the remake of A Nightmare on Elm Street. (Actually, even if they did like slasher flicks, it'd be a good idea to avoid it.)

It's the same if your playing a non-RPG game. Have you ever played a card game with someone new? Often games like Rummy have optional rules and everyone grew-up with a different set. You go to play Rummy with someone and you have to spend a few moments hashing out a few optional rules. The same is true of that other popular Hasbro game, Monopoly. I'm throughly convinces that now two people not related by blood play Monopoly the same way. If you play with a new person, you have to hash out which rules your using.

Your trust in a game master seems to be in his or her competence with the rules set and judgment. To earn my trust as a player, you need to find non-cynical ways to cope with any lack of competence or judgment. The way you phrased your post, it sounds like your response is rather cynical.
I don't think any of the DMs described were liking in competence or judgement, they just viewed the game differently.
 

You're not helping the game along with looking up spells, rules, whatever it takes to help keep the DM on track. You're taking advantage of him and the gaps in his knowledge, ability, and judgment.
It's normally these DMs that don't like the rules quoted to them. They've read the rules(or so they say, most of the time they haven't, or at least they don't remember them), they don't want the rules quoted to them, they want you to do what they say.

Besides, most of the time the incidents in question weren't involving the rules at all. How fast does fire spread? I don't believe there are rules for that in any edition of D&D(and it probably depends on a lot of factors). So, any ruling the DM comes up with is going to be entirely from his own head, his own judgment. That particular example comes up because we had a DM(James) who believed that a single spark could light up a wooden house and burn the entire place to the ground in less than 5 minutes. And any fire would immediately light any flammables in its area without any roll. So if you used a burning hands spells in his 2e game, you could expect that the wooden floor would catch on fire and you'd be taking damage due to the heat of being in a "burning building" within a round or two later. It would also burn up all the loot in the building and likely result in the death of someone innocent who happened to be in the building that we didn't know about.

Contrast that to the rest of our nearly 13 DMs who never once had a fire spell set anything on fire, all of whom felt that the spells were too instantaneous to set things on fire. The rules, however, were silent on whether simply casting these spells would set things on fire.

The first time he ruled that way we tried to say, "I think those spells shouldn't set things on fire. And when they do, it can take a long time for a small fire to turn into a big one. Certainly long enough for us to finish the fight and get out of there before we start taking damage." However, he disagreed and said he was the DM and what he said went.

We just learned quickly that it was better to prepare non-fire spells in James' game to avoid all the difficulties that came with setting everything on fire all the time. We also learned if we want to destroy evidence, we can set a building on fire and it'll burn so quickly no one can stop it and destroy everything in it. When the laws of physics are different than you expect them to, you adjust to the new laws of physics, that's all.

Likewise, when we didn't use battlemaps and the DM expected us to keep track of the positions of everyone in our head and we said "I cast a fireball behind the far Orcs", one DM would say "Are you sure? You know those far Orcs are in melee with 2 of your party members, right?" and one DM would say "Alright, that hits 3 Orcs and 2 of your party members, roll for damage. No, you can't take it back, if you can't keep track of where your party members are, then I'm not going to tell you. Assume it's the confusion of battle that makes it difficult to remember where they all are."

You learned quickly to avoid area of effect damage in the second DMs game, because you often hit your own party members without wanting to.

Your trust in a game master seems to be in his or her competence with the rules set and judgment. To earn my trust as a player, you need to find non-cynical ways to cope with any lack of competence or judgment. The way you phrased your post, it sounds like your response is rather cynical.
It is a little cynical, I admit. That's due to the pure number of misunderstandings I've had from DMs. You never really know if you are going to try jumping over a 3 foot hole and have a DM tell you "No one can jump 3 feet, at least not without a running start. You fall in the hole to your death." People, in general, get weird notions in their heads and no one can convince them that they are wrong. It's a lot easier to say "Look, it says in the book that I can jump 5 feet without a running start if I make a DC 10 Athletics check" than trying to convince a DM that 3 feet isn't that big of a deal to jump when he is convinced it's an impossible distance.

I trust that given free reign nearly any DM will eventually come up with their own brand of "insanity". I don't even trust myself with complete free reign. I keep my players trust by following the rules as written as consistently as possible. They know that 95% of what they do in the game will be decided by the rules and I'm not going to change it on them on the fly. They know the capabilities of their character and its limitations. This allows them to more accurately use tactics in combat with a good sense of their chances of success.
 

I trust that given free reign nearly any DM will eventually come up with their own brand of "insanity". I don't even trust myself with complete free reign. I keep my players trust by following the rules as written as consistently as possible. They know that 95% of what they do in the game will be decided by the rules and I'm not going to change it on them on the fly. They know the capabilities of their character and its limitations. This allows them to more accurately use tactics in combat with a good sense of their chances of success.


I know it's not a bad thing that either of us are doing, but as a DM I act pretty much the opposite of that. I let my player's judgement as people lead them to make decisions. My one player who was a wizard was looking at the Permanency spell (3.5), and he said, "What? Only some spells can be made permenant?"
"That's stupid. House rule." I replied.

Other DM's may see it as I give my players what they want too much, and I admit I do it too often sometimes. Half the time I don't even ask for rolls on skill checks. I can't remeber the last time I looked up a DC for a knowledge or spellcraft check. It tends to make our game go by lightening fast, with the players making success after success. If the fighter thinks he can jump a 3 foot hole, by gods he can go right ahead. If it's at an important moment I'll make him roll and if he fails I'll let him catch the edge or something. If the orc gets a critical and rolls five times as much damage as the druid has hitpoints, I'll describe the attack well, and let her animal companion jump in the way and take partial damage. The spear pins her to the ground rather than just killing her. I'm not here to beat the PC's, I'm here to have fun.
 

I'm not here to beat the PC's, I'm here to have fun.

Yeah, I used to think like that. Until I encounter PCs who were attempting to beat ME. Like in the Rifts game I ran where one of my PCs came up with a background for his character so he could be a Rahu-man Glitterboy pilot(so he could be a 14 foot tall creature with 4 arms who still got the benefit of the best armor in the game which was designed only to fit humans). And when I told him no, proceeded to make up a character who had Telemechanics so he could touch a Glitterboy, know its entire schematics, then find someone with the capability to produce them and give them the technology in exchange for a custom suit designed for him. Oh, and then used his powers to literally print money.

And the whole time, I kept saying "Sure, that sounds cool". Until the game was so out of hand that I could no longer challenge them with any enemies in any book in the game. And then I ended the game, since it was no fun to run anymore.

Now, I've learned:

1) Run games with balanced rules
2) Say no to players in exchange for maintaining game balance
 

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