D&D 4E Forked Thread: 4e And 4th Wall, was multiclassing - is Arcane Initiate too powerful?

[Lizard]

I'll be honest.

I don't believe that you actually believe that. I don't think anyone remotely familiar with RPGs could believe that, even if they had never even heard of 4e. I think you're engaged in a light form of trolling where you take maximalist positions on subjects where you might otherwise have reasonable points, but where you enjoy the fight that results.

Given the very limited space in the PHB, if the designers felt a need to add two paragraphs on Why Selling Rituals Won't Work and then call it out in a sidebar box, I'm tempted to assume they thought it was important.

4e is the first version of D&D (at least of the "AD&D" line) where the only real limit on making magic items is money. It takes very little time, no XP, and no investment of scarce character resources (Feats). Given that (and given that, as noted above, there's almost no problem in D&D (any version) which CAN'T be solved by throwing money at it), it seems to me that any marginally savvy group of players will realize they can get the money they need to solve their problems by going into the magic item business. It's fast, it's easy, and they can do it without "gimping" their characters or needing to wait a level to take the right feats. Thus, the economic rules were written to basically make it impossible for PCs to turn a profit from magic item manufacture, because there's no "in world" reason. (1e/2e -- took forever and a day, 3e -- took XP and feats)

The rule serves the purpose of keeping adventurers focused on looting tombs and despoiling nations as a means of raising money. It's just (to my mind) a particularly clumsy way to achieve that goal.

 

[Lizard]

The thing is, in either model the effect on the game world is the same. You have to describe it the same way both times! I don't see the difference.

The only difference I can see is the auto-success with Come And Get It as it is now, but that's a metagame issue - only the players are aware of the auto-success, not the PCs. (Well, that and the fact the power is gimped. Change the Cha attack to Intimidate and I think you will have something.)

What I'm saying is, I don't see how it's an issue of something being too hard to describe. I do see a metagame issue; instead of having to suffer through the uncertainty of not knowing if the NPCs will "come and get it", just like the PC does, the player knows.

Ah, I think I see the difference in our perspectives.

I assume the character knows the rules.

Not in an Order Of The Stick, "Hey, hold on, before you grapple me, let me look up how this works again" kind of way, but in the same way you know pretty much what a baseball you toss is going to do without having all of the physics equations memorized. A wizard in 3e knows his magic missile CAN'T miss if he can see the target. A fighter knows that if he swings hard, he's more likely to miss (Power Attack), and has a very good sense of just where the tradeoffs are. He also knows about how hard something is to hit. He knows that there's no way to kill an unwounded adult dragon with one mundane arrow, no matter how good a shot you are.

In 4e, a fighter might not know about "Encounter" or "daily" powers -- but he knows that opportunies for doing some things happen about once a fight (Encounter) and some a lot more rarely (Daily). If an ability "affects all targets in a burst", he knows that it will affect ALL of them. If it is "Attack Dex vs. Reflex", he knows he is more likely to hit a slow moving target than an agile one, and, furthermore, knows an agile fighter can pull the manuever off more reliably. Etc, etc, etc.

So, using CAGI as written, the fighter knows, "If I do *this*, everyone who sees me will come-a-runnin'. Period."

Using CAGI as modified, he knows "If I do *this*, I should be able to trick the dumb ones into coming...and maybe, if I'm lucky, one of the smarter ones." So he'd know not to use it against particularly clever foes, and he'd be more likely to use it against stupid ones.

I find it easier to believe in a "*this*" whose efficiency varies based on the gullibility of the targets, vs. a "*this*" which is always effective against all targets without exception.

Doesn't matter to you? Cool. No need for change.

(To someone else...I like the idea of making it an Intimidate check, but I'm not sure how to use a skill in a combat maneuver. "Intimidate vs. Will"? Wouldn't the Intimidate bonus generally be higher than attribute+BAB, esp. w/training and focus? Seems a bit too likely to "hit". A character can easily have a +7 to +10 Intimidate at first level...combat will be about...hmm..+3->4 for attribute, +3 for weapon proficiency, +1 for fighter style...yeah, it's close enough...hm.)

 

[SSquirrel]

5)Recognize that no game system is perfect, but that the only way game systems get BETTER is if people point out their flaws so they can be analyzed and corrected.

Point 5 would seem to be one of the bones of contention of this thread as many of us disagree that it is a flaw in need of correcting. I'm all for tweaking a system to be what you want it to be, but so far I haven't really had to bother much in the way of house rules for 4E

 

[Ahglock]

As already pointed out above - this is incorrect.

No need to house rule it, because they are already immune to poison.

Carl

While his specific example was refuted the general concept wasn't. In the first couple weeks of the game coming out there were a legion of whiskey tango foxtrots? asking why X creature was effected by Y.

 

[Mad Hamish]

While his specific example was refuted the general concept wasn't. In the first couple weeks of the game coming out there were a legion of whiskey tango foxtrots? asking why X creature was effected by Y.

Mostly forced movement and effects.
the classical example is an ooze being knocked prone.

A lot of that depends on how you describe things.
A rogue shifting a dragon could be feinting a movement and the dragon moves to block where he thinks you're going.

In terms of particular monsters taking a particular type of damage if it worries you just make them immune to it.

 

[Lizard]

Mostly forced movement and effects.
the classical example is an ooze being knocked prone.

A lot of that depends on how you describe things.
A rogue shifting a dragon could be feinting a movement and the dragon moves to block where he thinks you're going.

In terms of particular monsters taking a particular type of damage if it worries you just make them immune to it.

Since forced movement works on immobilized creatures, you've got a rogue making a dragon move Cha Modifier squares by "lunging and missing" or "tripping" when it can't otherwise move at all...

It's just all the little things like that.

Last night, I rewatched one of my favorite movies, Galaxy Quest, and was, once again, driven mad, mad I say, by the question:"If the aliens just copied the show, how is it possible that the 'beryllium sphere' the writers made up from the whole cloth was, actually, a form of power such that there'd be a mining colony for said spheres? Did the writers of the fictional show somehow stumble onto a genuine power source for interstellar travel? And how can you build a time-reversal device without knowing what it does?"

(I've been told some of my fiction is too talky because I have characters constantly explaining to each other why they can't do obvious thing a, b, or c, or why they have to do stupid thing z. The 'real' reason is: I need the plot to go in a particular way. But I figure if I wonder about these things, so will my readers, and I feel compelled to address them...)

 

[robertliguori]

Since forced movement works on immobilized creatures, you've got a rogue making a dragon move Cha Modifier squares by "lunging and missing" or "tripping" when it can't otherwise move at all...

It's just all the little things like that.

Last night, I rewatched one of my favorite movies, Galaxy Quest, and was, once again, driven mad, mad I say, by the question:"If the aliens just copied the show, how is it possible that the 'beryllium sphere' the writers made up from the whole cloth was, actually, a form of power such that there'd be a mining colony for said spheres? Did the writers of the fictional show somehow stumble onto a genuine power source for interstellar travel? And how can you build a time-reversal device without knowing what it does?"

(I've been told some of my fiction is too talky because I have characters constantly explaining to each other why they can't do obvious thing a, b, or c, or why they have to do stupid thing z. The 'real' reason is: I need the plot to go in a particular way. But I figure if I wonder about these things, so will my readers, and I feel compelled to address them...)

Obviously, they watched the show and redesigned their existing interstellar power source to require beryllium spheres. Kind of like the Crusher Corridor.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Really? Because I'd think a totally irresistable forced movement power that affected all creatures in a burst would be used mostly to get people out of cover -- so that the strikers can gank them. When I saw CAGI, that's the first use I thought of for it. Get the damn archers and casters down from the trees and out in the open.

So change the cinematics to match the situation.

The goblin archer, secure in his perch, looses another arrow at the fighter on the ground below. The fighter sneers and raises his sword... angling the blade to reflect the light of the setting sun into the goblin's eyes. The goblin throws up a hand, dazzled, and loses his balance, coming tumbling out of the tree. His partner leaps futilely from his own branch in an instinctive attempt to save him... and as both wind up at the feet of the human, they realise just how badly they've screwed up...

Mechanics: Both goblins have shifted 2 and ended up adjacent to the fighter.

-Hyp.

 

[pemerton]

So change the cinematics to match the situation.

The goblin archer, secure in his perch, looses another arrow at the fighter on the ground below. The fighter sneers and raises his sword... angling the blade to reflect the light of the setting sun into the goblin's eyes. The goblin throws up a hand, dazzled, and loses his balance, coming tumbling out of the tree. His partner leaps futilely from his own branch in an instinctive attempt to save him... and as both wind up at the feet of the human, they realise just how badly they've screwed up...

Mechanics: Both goblins have shifted 2 and ended up adjacent to the fighter.

-Hyp.

Excellent stuff!

 

[LostSoul]

Ah, I think I see the difference in our perspectives.

I assume the character knows the rules.

Is it possible for you to decide that the character's don't know the rules? That might solve the problem.

(The only power I have a problem with - that's come up in play - is the one Rogue power that slides the target 1+Cha mod squares... how does he maneuver and make the bad guy run away? Maybe next time I'll take the time to explain it.

Oh hell; it's not the target that shifts, it's the Rogue. That makes sense!)

(To someone else...I like the idea of making it an Intimidate check, but I'm not sure how to use a skill in a combat maneuver. "Intimidate vs. Will"? Wouldn't the Intimidate bonus generally be higher than attribute+BAB, esp. w/training and focus? Seems a bit too likely to "hit". A character can easily have a +7 to +10 Intimidate at first level...combat will be about...hmm..+3->4 for attribute, +3 for weapon proficiency, +1 for fighter style...yeah, it's close enough...hm.)

The problem with Cha is that all the Fighter's attacks key off Str. Wis also helps for a Fighter, so he's not likely to put anything into Cha. When he reaches the level where he can choose Come And Get It, he's not going to pick it. If you swap it out for Intimidate, he might have a +9 to +11 bonus; his regular sword will probably be +11 to +13. His Cha attack is probably looking at +6.