Forked Thread: Das Schwarze Auge [The Dark Eye], your experiences?

[frankthedm]

Forked from: German publisher of D&D 4E won't renew contract

Yeah, The Dark Eye in englisch, Das Schwarze Auge (lit. the black eye) in german. Fanpro attempted to bring TDE in the U.S.A and to rival Wotc's D&D-game... Suffice to say they failed... miserably... as everybody expected...

So i ask, Who has experiences to relate of this game?

The Dark Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Oni]

I was just trying to find out more information about this game this morning, since I'd never heard of it before and it suddenly cropped up with people recommending it.

I thought this was interesting from the wiki.

"The system is based on the memory of the player; the player must speak the formula without reading it during the game. When the formula is correct, the spell is cast and the character loses astral energy points corresponding to the spell."

I wonder if it would get annoying though.

 

[Derren]

In which wiki? Wikipedia or the DSA Wiki (En:Main Page)? - Wiki Aventurica

And I have never seen any DSA player actually do this.
DSA is rather similar to D&D, although a lot more simulationistic.

The game has classes, but they only determine your starting abilities and social standing in the world. You can buy all skills you want at a price.
Like D&D characters DSA characters have a set of stats, although not the one you are used to, and also a set of "negative attributes" like fear of the dead and quick temper (old edition info. Don't know if that is the case in DSA 4E anymore)

Combat is also turn based and compareable to 3E D&D (so no funky powerz for everyone), although everyone just gets one attack each round. In combat characters can, once per round, parry enemy attacks when attacked from the front which means that 1 on 1 combat can become quite long as the success of the parry is independant from how good the attacker is.
Each level you can also decide to add your attack bonus to attack or parrying.

Skills work differently than in D&D. Each skill is linked to 3 attributes (can be the same attribute several times) and your goal is to roll below your attributes. When you increase the skill you can subtract your skill points from a roll if it is too high. That also means that every skill roll requires 3 rolls.

And as wizard you need a lot of d6.

DSA supports mainly one world, Aventurien which is low magic mediveal europe (although a high magic DSA world also exists). It is very detailed and also rather simulationistic. For example "fighter" in DSA is a real profession (someone graduaded from a fighter academy and is generally considered a lesser noble) and only fighters are allowed to wield certain weapons (by law, not by the rules). Also you better believe in the correct gods, or the inquisition might look for you.

PS: If you are a PC gamer too, you might want to buy the newest PC game in the DSA universe called Drakensang when it comes out in UK/US sometimes next year. In the german version the basic rules of the PnP game are included as PDF on the DVD (no gurantee if that is also true on the english versions)

 

[Jan van Leyden]

I've played TDE a bit, because my wife felt more comfortable running a RPG using German rules. Suffice to say that nowadays she prefers running D&D with English rules.

TDE started out as a Geman analogon to D&D in the late seventies, early eighties. It was a homebrew system made by guys who knew D&D and wanted to share their RPG experience with friends, who didn't want to rely on English. Hence, the first version was quite similar to BD&D, without things like skills. The first published version appeared at about the same time as the first translated version of D&D.

Soon after an Advanced Set was published, and not too long after this a second edition incorporating most of the rules of the advanced set.

The third edition - which was the one we were playing - made things more complicated, the fourth edition most me completely. It was published 2002, and felt like GURPS or Hero: point buy system, tons of options, but you acually had to 'work' to get a decent character.

One unique aspect of TDE is the number of published adventures. I'm not sure whether they are still numbered, but very sure that at least 150 adventures have been published. Many of those adventures have very strong ties to the game world, letting the player experience important events first-hand. On the other hand, many adventures involve(d) a whole lot of railroading.

For example I remember a very old one: due to some unfortunate circumstances the PCs were quested to kill the emporer of the realm. Regardless of the players plans and actions the whole thing culminaetd in them being in a specific country, in a specific village, in a specific house, in a specific room at a specific point in time. Given that the players were at the start of the adventure some 1.000 miles away, you can imagine the nightmare this might evolve to.

If everything went well, the players experienced a very astonishing situation, which would have a great impact on the world.

You can believe me that there are a lot of differences between TDE-players and D&D-players in Germany, many of them considering the other group as dumb, primitive, uneducated, and non-roleplayers.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I was just trying to find out more information about this game this morning, since I'd never heard of it before and it suddenly cropped up with people recommending it.

I thought this was interesting from the wiki.

"The system is based on the memory of the player; the player must speak the formula without reading it during the game. When the formula is correct, the spell is cast and the character loses astral energy points corresponding to the spell."

I wonder if it would get annoying though.

That is an old, old rule which was basically optional and is no longer present in the current edition. It was pretty corny, to be honest.

One unique aspect of TDE is the number of published adventures. I'm not sure whether they are still numbered, but very sure that at least 150 adventures have been published. Many of those adventures have very strong ties to the game world, letting the player experience important events first-hand. On the other hand, many adventures involve(d) a whole lot of railroading.

For example I remember a very old one: due to some unfortunate circumstances the PCs were quested to kill the emporer of the realm. Regardless of the players plans and actions the whole thing culminaetd in them being in a specific country, in a specific village, in a specific house, in a specific room at a specific point in time. Given that the players were at the start of the adventure some 1.000 miles away, you can imagine the nightmare this might evolve to.

Auf der Suche nach einem Kaiser. An old, old adventure. Ah, the days when railroading was a necessity, not a crime. Current campaigns are more open-ended, but sometimes allow you to impact the setting as a whole in a significant way.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Forked from: German publisher of D&D 4E won't renew contract

So i ask, Who has experiences to relate of this game?

The Dark Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, i´ll give it a try:

- TDE is a campaign-world focused game. The whole point of the ruleset is to simulate playing a character in that world and only that world. That´s why the rules give you options that will pretty well never come up in 99% of the games played - but you COULD, in theory, play an all-goblin campaign, so...

- TDE is trying to be realistic fantasy - which means two things: explaining the ridiculousness of the past in the setting with more or less coherent, flavorful retcons (the archtypical loony Elminster-esque mage from editions past gets an interesting, diverse backstory and has his power cropped down to reasonable limits). And trying to be influenced more by historic real-world equivalents than high fantasy.

- TDE has a pretty simple core mechanic: Roll under or equal for attribute tests on a d20, human medium is 11. Roll 3 times under or equal on three attributes for skill tests, using skillpoints to "correct" each roll that comes up higher than the relevant attribute.

- TDE is about adding stuff to the setting, not to the rules. Once you´ve bought the core rules (1000+ pages of stuff) or the Rules Cyclopedia-esque Basic Rules (300 pages), thats it. You get an totally awesome amount of adventures, flooding you with options for your campaing, and you get an in-depth description of pretty much every aspect of the setting. That´s it.
For instance, finding a new spell, ONE new spell, would be the table talk for spellcasters all over the continent for the next few decades. Stuff like that just doesn´t happen that often.

- TDE has a world that is not only used for RPGs. Major events are "played out" in LARPS, and most of the core baronies of the world are used for a player-driven RTS-like play-by-post game of diplomacy, war and stuff.

- TDE is either hotly loved or hotly hated on the net: It´s the game "i grew out of", the game "i played when i was younger", the game "for kids, not for adults", the game "with the weird rules," and so on. It´s the most successful German RPG, making it a big, easy target.

If you have any questions, fire away.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I was just trying to find out more information about this game this morning, since I'd never heard of it before and it suddenly cropped up with people recommending it.

I thought this was interesting from the wiki.

"The system is based on the memory of the player; the player must speak the formula without reading it during the game. When the formula is correct, the spell is cast and the character loses astral energy points corresponding to the spell."

I wonder if it would get annoying though.

Well, that certainly is no longer part of the 4th Edition of DSA.

The game over the time started as very class focused, but nowadays, it is mostly a point buy system. I think the basic idea isn't too bad, either.
YOur initial build poitns can be used to buy ability points, race, class and region. This gives you some initial abilities like special skills (feats) and flaws and perks. So far, so well. Now, based on your mental abilities you also gain adventuring points (experience points) which you can use to improve talents and special skills, and spellcasters also their spells.

In game, talents are denoted with 3 ability scores. You roll 1d20 for each score and try to keep under or equal the score. If you fail, you can use points from your talent value to compensate. Remaining skill points are sometimes used to determine effectiveness of a skill attempt.
If you advance, you can spend experience points to improve your skills. The cost for improving a skill vary depending on skill, and (at least with optional rules) also depend on how much training you get.

(Melee) Weapon talent points have to be distributed (once) among attack and parry. You roll a d20 against a value determined by your ability scores plus your attack value and try again to keep under. Enemies can parry (usually once per round) if you hit and negate the damage.
(One think I always liked conceptually is that your "courage" attribute is also factored into the attack). Weapons grant weapon modifiers to attack or parry (or both). (Which is a simplification of an older weapon comparison system in previous editions.)

Shields work similar to parry, but are not the same. They grant their own bonuses and are not based on weapon talent but on special skills.

Ranged attacks are against a similar determined attack value, plus a modifier based on range and size. (Annoyingly enough, attacking a medium size attacker causes already a penalty, just for guaranteed extra math, err... probably weapon balance.) Loading most weapons takes a few rounds. (No Rapid Shot/Twin Strike Rangers in TDE)

Damage is rolled with a number of d6 and a bonus depending on weapon and your strength score.
You have hit points that increase only very slowly (not the D&D ablative hit point model) and if you take too much damage, you also suffer wounds for further penalties. Armor reduces damage taken.

---
My opinion of the system overall: Hate.
The skill system is needlessly overcomplicated. Rolling 3 dice against 3 different "DCs"? Gargh. And checks with modifiers? Substraction is not only the least precise mathematical operation to perform on a computer, it also sucks in pen & paper games.

Combat? Armor is King. Shields, Parries, it's mostly useless. You want to attack, hit hard to break through every armor you find, while being heavily armored. It might be realistic for some values of realistic, but it's dull and unbalanced. The special skills for combat are complicated (attack with a penalty, if you fail, you take a penalty to your parries to the next round, and if you hit, you might get a chance to do something... I suppose there are some killer combos hidden in there, but I just can't bring myself to care finding them out.)
And overall 15 minute adventuring days seem likely in TDE, too, especially since the astral points (think mana points) regenerate slowly, and the same at least used to apply to the divine classes... (I remember that 3E TDE priests had serious problems recovering their points. One of the best ways to gain them back was by converting others to the 12-Gods belief system. Unfortunately, everyone already believes in that, except Orcs and a sect believing in a single god, and you wouldn't really want to try changing their beliefs!)

I suppose on the Retro/Stupid/Pretentious diagram, TDE moved over time from Retro to Pretentious.
The system "stole" a lot of concepts from other games. That's not necessarily bad, but it didn't do it always (or at all?) in a good way to make the game more stream-lined, faster or balanced.

---

The world is a different matter. Aventuria is the size of Eurasia, approximately, with a lot of different and interesting cultures. There are other continents, and the world "Dere" (an allusion to "Erde", the German word for Earth) is as big as ours with same number of continents.
The backstory had the recent human population being settlers from a different continent. Orcs were the origianl population but have been driven out of their homelands. (Orcs in TDE are also called "blackpelts", so they are not the green-skin Orcs of Warhammer and D&D)
Elves and Dwarves do also exist, with different cultures.

The primary belief system is a polytheistic system of 12 gods and a 13th, "The Nameless". He might be evil or not, but it is said finding out his name and speaking it might be catastrophic (IIRC). There is a second system with only one god that only one country/culture believes in. And furthermore, there are also Druids believing in gods the other religions might consider either false or dead.

The world is richly detailed. I think it is a beautiful world, possibly similar detailed to how Forgotten Realms was (or more), yet without all those overpowered NPCs .
Unfortunately, I also feel as if I didn't know enough about the world to do it justice, and the things I know about it make me feel as if it is not an adventuring place for me. I think it lacks the "Points of Lights" feeling a lot.

There are a lot of adventures available, some good, some bad. They are aimed for different ages, and some of them work fine without any combat and are well suited for beginning players (at least for the Germans view on violence )

---

My opinion the world is not really negative, though I just can't see myself running a campaign set there. (Playing in one is a different matter, the DM can do what he wants, though I still don't like the system.)
A highly detailed world is a weakness for me usually, but it might not be for others (obviously, it's not for the German fandom of TDE). I sometimes feel it is a little too... "soft", at least in the way the adventurers are written. The typical assumptions seems to be heroic, yet naive, good-aligned adventurers trying to make the world a better place. Except the naive, I can live with everything, but the naive irks me. (If any TDE fans are here, they might disagree with my description...)

I would find the system less "naive", if stuff like religious conflicts would seem more prominent, or if the relationship to the Orcs was more interesting. As it stands, the Orcs are evil, not rightful owners of the region the humans are now occupying...
Well, I am not an expert on TDE, so maybe this is sometimes discussed, but it doesn't feel like it is.

 

[DandD]

Nah, the very fact that the orcish god works with the demons from the outer hells gives any righteous 12-god worshipping human the rigth to slay these heathen creatures.

The rules-system for 4th edition TDE (or 4.1, as it's called now) is needlessly complicated. A point-buy system where you really have to do precise mathematics, buying skill-points, feats, hitpoints, ability scores, reduce your negative qualities... It seemed like they took a que from Shadowrun, and applied a bean-counter mindset upon it. And of course, like in Shadowrun, magicians, priests and magic-capable classes surpass their mundane counterparts by leagues from 1st level on.

There have been some realms-shaking events similar to the catastrophes that occurs the Forgotten Realms of D&D every new edition.

I wonder if the authors of TDE still take open jabs at D&D and try to sell their inferior copy as realistic fantasy. You know, where magic explains everything, literally. Dragons fly through magic, that's realistic fantasy. And your wounds heal really fast because there's magic in the air. And there's a desert inmidst the dwarf-continent, because of magic.

So what's the point of pointing that fact out, you TDE-tweedles?

It always felt like as the german makers of TDE had to justify their game in regard of the great american devil-game, D&D.

 

[xechnao]

In game, talents are denoted with 3 ability scores. You roll 1d20 for each score and try to keep under or equal the score. If you fail, you can use points from your talent value to compensate. Remaining skill points are sometimes used to determine effectiveness of a skill attempt.

So the basic mechanic of its main system is something similar to the skill challenges of 4e D&D? If so could skill challenges be better handled with DSA's system?

(Melee) Weapon talent points have to be distributed (once) among attack and parry. You roll a d20 against a value determined by your ability scores plus your attack value and try again to keep under.

I am not entirely sure I understood this. You roll only one time against one complex value or two times against two values?

And checks with modifiers? Substraction is not only the least precise mathematical operation to perform on a computer, it also sucks in pen & paper games.

Well I cant figure out what you are trying to say here. Can you explain a bit more?

 

[DandD]

So the basic mechanic of its main system is something similar to the skill challenges of 4e D&D? If so could skill challenges be better handled with DSA's system?

No. You roll against three different DC (set by your own ability score) for one single skill roll. It has nothing to do with the skill challenge attempt from D&D 4e. You have to roll under your ability score. If you roll too high, you substract the difference from your skill points. If your skill points fall below to zero, you fail your skill check.

I am not entirely sure I understood this. You roll only one time against one complex value or two times against two values?

One time against one complex value. Your opponent might parry with the same mechanism.

Well I cant figure out what you are trying to say here. Can you explain a bit more?

If a skill check is difficult, you substract the modifier from your skill points, which acts as reserve pool for your skill checks, as pointed out above.