Forked Thread: Dealing with sociopathic PCs (Was: Stop being so paranoid)

[The Grumpy Celt]

If you have an issue with your players, talk to them. Don't try to 'teach them a lesson' with your game.

This game is an entertainment tool, not an education tool. You can’t use it to make people into better people. All you can do is amuse people. And there is nothing more entertaining than hurting other people.

It’s still a zero-sum-gain world. It is just evolution at both its rawest and most artificial, just a pen and paper version of nature red in tooth and claw. Civilization – which determines right and wrong – is just the lie told by the people who are currently at the top, who are currently winning.

In this game, you measure your success by the bodies at your feet and the loot in your pack. Allow PvP… hell, encourage it. That’s what newbs are for.

 

[catsclaw227]

This game is an entertainment tool, not an education tool. You can’t use it to make people into better people. All you can do is amuse people. And there is nothing more entertaining than hurting other people.

It’s still a zero-sum-gain world. It is just evolution at both its rawest and most artificial, just a pen and paper version of nature red in tooth and claw. Civilization – which determines right and wrong – is just the lie told by the people who are currently at the top, who are currently winning.

In this game, you measure your success by the bodies at your feet and the loot in your pack. Allow PvP… hell, encourage it. That’s what newbs are for.

In all seriousness though, because I can't tell if you are having fun and being sarcastic or if this is your honest voice speaking, is this your preferred style of D&D? DMs should be out to kill PCs (from another thread) and that PvP is to be encouraged? I am genuinely asking this without any intended judgment.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

This game is an entertainment tool, not an education tool. You can’t use it to make people into better people. All you can do is amuse people. And there is nothing more entertaining than hurting other people.

Dealing with sociopathic players was beyond the scope of my essay...

It’s still a zero-sum-gain world. It is just evolution at both its rawest and most artificial, just a pen and paper version of nature red in tooth and claw. Civilization – which determines right and wrong – is just the lie told by the people who are currently at the top, who are currently winning.

In my current Exalted campaign, the player characters go out of their way to hurt as few people as possible. And strangely, they still seem to have fun with it.

 

[GnomeWorks]

This game is an entertainment tool, not an education tool. You can’t use it to make people into better people. All you can do is amuse people.

The number of things one can learn from gaming is probably nigh-innumerable.

Social skills. Mathematics. Understanding complex systems. Cause and effect.

That's just to name a few. I'm sure others could add more. Gaming is an amazing educational tool, and it does not even need to set out with education as a goal in order to be educational: engaging in gaming is enough to better yourself, in some fashion.

 

[That One Guy]

I tend to kill them.

Ditto. Especially if I play someone evil w/ plans of RULING something. Sociopaths who destroy at whim really do not jive with my groove if ya' dig.

And the prof's right about game stories. I think the modern mythology of table top games is a pretty amazing thing.

I can't deal with sociopathic tendencies in players when I DM. Or rather... if the player's I>Everyone mentality gets in the way of everyone having fun I am always... bothered. Actually, I tend to stop playing with those people. Granted, I think there's a difference between a sociopathic character and player. Characters are more okay for me. Players... nope. I like stories and narratives involving groups of people too much.

(I do like the Final Stage: Doom)

 

[Dire Bare]

Forked from: Stop being so paranoid

Over in the other thread, it was discussed how to deal with sociopathic player characters - the kind of characters who see the world around them as nothing more than a source of XPs and loot, regardless of whether their activities would be considered ethical.

I've expanded my thoughts on the issue and posted them to my blog here. But I am wondering how other people would deal with such issues.

I had a similiar problem with a group I used to game with, but as a player. No matter what game we played, the other player's acted as sociopaths through their characters. I think they were trying to go for dark anti-heroes, but there was too much of a willingness to torture and murder their way through the plots. And as I always tend to play in a heroic vein, our styles clashed a lot.

Funny thing though, when it was finally my turn to DM, without ever discussing the issue, they played actual heroes in my game! After that, I DM'd most of the time and fun was had by all.

 

[Masada]

Let me sum up...

You start by introducing a situation where players are roleplaying murderous slayers. You then propose to teach them a lesson by a long campaign of greater and greater negative consequences mostly based on the idea that a game of murderous slayers isn't what you want the players to be. Rather than any out of game discussion, you instead propose session after session of degrading circumstances where the PC's ultimately perish in darkness--perhaps even shedding a tear as they bitterly crumple their character sheets. But the players are ultimately grateful for the life lesson you have taught them.

While this may work out well in a church fable... I don't think this has anything to do with teaching good roleplay. Roleplay is just taking on a persona to act out in a game... there is no implied "goodness" to the role. Some murderous slayers are facinating characters. What seems contested here is that the players and the DM are playing two different games. The DM is conducting a class in morals and the players are goofing around trying to have fun--arguably at the DM's expense.

My assumption here is that the ideal situation would be for the DM and the players to play the same game. That can be mostly quickly achieved by an out-of-game re-discussion of the campaign style the DM had in mind. The lesson is still learned, the players refocus on being good guys, the DM doesn't have to ditch his planned plot for an impromptu ethics class, and joy is restored to the game table. All in the span of 1-2 games sessions.

But hey... fight the good fight... teach all the life lessons you think need to be taught. I'm sure someone goes for the "slow decent in to darkness" campaign. I'll be taking the faster route to the happy game, thanks.

 

[Fenes]

Trying to solve player/out of character problems by character/in character actions never works well. Try to "teach" a minmaxer that the DM always wins if he wants to win, and the minmaxer will "learn" one thing: He needs to minmax more to beat the DM.

You know what I'd have learned from your lesson? That the best way to have a deep, lasting campaign centered on my character and its friends, where we shape the world instead of running in the hamster wheels of adventure paths is to play an evil PC.

What I certainly wouldn't have learned is that you dislike such a game, and exepcted me to change my ways.

Because I expect mature adults to tell me what they want and what they do not want out of a game. Not to beat around the bush and/or expect me to read their thoughts.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

In all seriousness though...

This is about what people actually do, not what they say they do.

It's only wrong if you are caught, stopped and punished. It is only wrong to the extent you are punished. DMs and players have no moral, ethical or rules bound obligation to any one or anything except amusing themselves as much as they can get away with.

Based on experience, DMs just like screwing over players and players like hurting each other… because they are all human and that is what people do.

So, go hog wild.

 

[catsclaw227]

This is about what people actually do, not what they say they do.

It's only wrong if you are caught, stopped and punished. It is only wrong to the extent you are punished. DMs and players have no moral, ethical or rules bound obligation to any one or anything except amusing themselves as much as they can get away with.

I am not sure if I understand your response. First, I can't tell if your real-world and D&D world views are blurring. I asked if you were serious about your contentions that:

a) DMs should be out to kill PCs (from another thread)

b) PvP is to be encouraged?

Also, I was a bit taken by your statement:

This game is an entertainment tool, not an education tool. You can’t use it to make people into better people. All you can do is amuse people. And there is nothing more entertaining than hurting other people.

Not sure if you are talking real world or D&D land. You are speaking as a person talking about gaming, but then I can't tell if you slip back into PC motivations or not.

And you say Civilization is a lie and all that.

Based on experience, DMs just like screwing over players and players like hurting each other… because they are all human and that is what people do.

My experience is totally different. We look at the game as cooperative, and as a DM, I am a facilitator and narrator. Sometimes there is conflict between PCs and the NPCs, sometimes it is about solving problems and tackling campaign events, whether at the village scope or planar scope.

I guess we play different types of games.

Maybe I am just a goof, but some of your comments are worrisome and I am not sure if you're just playing around or if you really believe that "there is nothing more entertaining than hurting other people."\

EDIT: and my latin is gawdawful, but it looks like your sig says something like "true vengence knows no boundaries" or something like that.