Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e; 4e upgrade or new game??

[teitan]

I think that 3.0 was the last version of the game I would say is what I recognize as AD&D/D&D and I am not saying that 4e isn't D&D by that. I am saying that 3.0 was created under the same basic assumptions of AD&D and kept those in the game. The rules were streamlined in intelligent ways, spells were still recognizable and they brought back a lot of the feel of 1e with the return of the Half-Orc etc. I was one of those players who didn't use level limits and restrictions in my games so those changes didn't feel any different. I loved how they split N-WPs into skills & feats. I liked how kits were turned into Prestige classes. 3.0 through its run was classic D&D in spite of what the grognards said.

3.5 changed a lot of that. While fundamentally it was the same game, I think many of the little changes in the rules and spells really altered the ways the game played. The spells went from lasting hours to seconds or minutes. New classes in books like Magic of Incarnum felt out of place to me. The ever increasing expansion of new playable races, extremely weird races at that. I didn't like the splat books at all. The game just lacked the flavour of D&D in my experience. I think the popularity of Planescape really hurt the game in this way. I loved Planescape, but it's influence was a detriment. I know it is a personal thing so no need to flame, my D&D isn't your D&D.

I like 4e though. I could do without Tieflings & Dragonborn, but they don't bother me either. I like the new mechanics. I like the class design. I like the powers & feats etc. and especially the way they kept wizards from being wusses when they ran out of spells. I loved that monsters became simpler and the DMG is awesome. This is different game though. I like it but haven't played it yet. I don't have a local group yet. When I play it I will know if I love it. It is too different in fundamental ways to say "this is the D&D you grew up with" and it is more like "This is a new D&D". It isn't the same game but that isn't a bad thing and heck, it could be better. I also see the comparisons to OD&D.

 

[rounser]

Like you said above, even 1E is only D&D by "most" standards. So it's just a matter of degree.

To a degree, 4E isn't D&D to a significant proportion of D&D players. And to a large degree, AD&D set the parameters for what is considered D&D, as it defined D&D at the height of it's initial popularity.

So yes, you're correct. To a degree.

 

[Fifth Element]

And to a large degree, AD&D set the parameters for what is considered D&D, as it defined D&D at the height of it's initial popularity.

That's likely true, but as more of the current players get old and stop playing (i.e., die), and more new players come into the game through a more recent edition, the dominant edition that sets the "mainstream" definition of D&D will change.

So these parameters will likely change over time.

 

[Thasmodious]

To a degree, 4E isn't D&D to a significant proportion of D&D players.

Meh. 3E wasn't D&D to a significant portion of players at release either. We'll see where we are in a year.

Here's the list to determine if the version of D&D you are playing is, in fact, D&D (this list is definitive and cannot be contested in any court of law)-

Are there dungeons?
Are there dragons?

 

[rounser]

So these parameters will likely change over time.

Perhaps, but by the time D&D gets over it's identity crisis, and stops trying to sell minis and compete with MMORPGS, I predict that the game (if not the brand) will be rammed into the ground.

LEGO games provide a less painful D&D experience than the real thing nowadays, and at least they're designed by people who don't seem jaded with their IP. I mean, what the heck are eberron and 4E but trying to ape other genres, movies and games on different platforms and media? It's such a squandered opportunity. It will probably reach it's stride eventually, but I doubt it will be to much of a new audience.

 

[Fifth Element]

<snip>

Ah. I see where you're coming from now. Never mind.

 

[rounser]

Ah. I see where you're coming from now. Never mind.

That's okay, I've dismissed your opinion too. A shade of grey in difference it may be, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. To say that any difference not black and white in contrast can be handwaved is just wrong.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Meh. 3E wasn't D&D to a significant portion of players at release either. We'll see where we are in a year.

Here's the list to determine if the version of D&D you are playing is, in fact, D&D (this list is definitive and cannot be contested in any court of law)-

Are there dungeons?
Are there dragons?

I can have both of these things while playing GURPS Fantasy so I guess thats D&D as its defined.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's the list to determine if the version of D&D you are playing is, in fact, D&D (this list is definitive and cannot be contested in any court of law)-

Are there dungeons?
Are there dragons?

ExploderWizard
I can have both of these things while playing GURPS Fantasy so I guess thats D&D as its defined.

Or Fantasy Hero, or Palladium Fantasy, or Tunnels & Trolls, or...

Oh, you get the point.

 

[Fifth Element]

That's okay, I've dismissed your opinion too.

Please don't presume to know what I'm thinking. I mean "never mind" as in "I can see this argument won't go anywhere, so I'm going to stop now". Not "I think your opinion is stupid".