Forked Thread: Healing Surges: Let's see them in Action!

[jensun]

About this (and I think it could apply to a lot of other examples) is that it is awesome because it happens once in the movie, during the final battle with his nemesis. If Inigo was playing 4e the same thing would happen every single fight (more or less) and how much fun would it be then?

It would be awesome because Inigo would be a player in an ongoing game rather than a character in a movie with a definite end point.

 

[Obryn]

Obyrn, I feel that you're ruling out examples unjustly. Specifically, the Whedonverse examples.

No, I specifically disagree with your premise that long-term injuries in any way map to HP loss. From there the rest of the argument kinda becomes moot, I think...

I've pointed out in this thread that I think the series has some examples that fit neither mechanic well (the comas, specifically), but I certainly didn't waste my time posting all of them because I believe that some of them cannot be modeled by 4E's system. I was asked to come up with examples of physical damage that takes a while to heal and impedes the person in physical combat later. I did that, over and over again on period ranging from months to the next day.

I'm probably not the guy who asked you to do that, though. Maybe they will find the arguments more compelling.

-O

 

[The_Fan]

The anime One Piece has some excellent examples of healing surges in action. Best example:

Luffy has gotten the high holy hell beat out of him by the villain. The villain has him at his mercy, and does a finishing blow so powerful it damages the wall 20 feet behind him. Then he just drops Luffy and walks away as Luffy teeters and almost falls over...then suddenly regains his footing, swears he will not be defeated, and launches an absolutely devastating counter-attack that finishes the fight in his favor.

Game terms: He was at some absurdly low HP, possibly even negative, but had not yet used his second wind. He used second wind and spent an action point, which due to a class ability or feat gave him a bonus to the next attack, then used a daily.

 

[ExploderWizard]

No, I specifically disagree with your premise that long-term injuries in any way map to HP loss. From there the rest of the argument kinda becomes moot, I think...

O

I can be on board with this idea. What's needed then is another mechanical representation of long term injury and hit points can be left in peace. If ALL you have to measure overall effectiveness is HP then injuries need to map there for lack of a more sensible place to go.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

However, if the plot was already in place that the players had until sunrise on the third day to save the princess, then a singular critical hit should not halt the players while they wait for the rogue to gain enough HP to continue.

Why not?

Are the PCs immune to failure due to bad luck?

 

[Hussar]

Uhh... I've posted 15 counter-examples. One person argued that Frodo's covered under a disease mechanic and you've argued that John Constantine's lung cancer doesn't count (because he gets his ass kicked when he's healthy too?). But it's hardly 10-2... if you want to win the thread that you posted, rather than actually engage in an exchange of ideas and data, for some weird reason.

If you, as the OP, are going to ignore people who respond to your direct question, then you should have made it a blog post. That's where monologues go.

Sorry about that. Took a long time to post my reply and didn't see your points. At the time of my posting, I saw things at about 10-2. My bad. To be fair, I also didn't even SEE your stealth posted examples. Does it really count as spoilers to a show that's been cancelled for years?

Then again, how many times are Buffyverse characters beaten up, kicked around, whatnot and then just press on afterwards. Every single one of your examples are plot related. If there was no plot reason for those injuries, they would never happen.

But, here's another example. Someone mentioned Wesley from Princess Bride. Here's how you do that with 4e healing mechanics:

First, the Raise Dead ritual would have to be changed slightly. Instead of bringing you back full, it brings you back with 1 hp and no rest. This could easily be accomplished because Inigo doesn't actually follow the ritual correctly.

Second, the Machine sucks out Healing Surges. When you run out of surges, it sucks out hit points.

Now, when Wesley is killed by the Machine, he dies with no surges. He comes back later with exactly 1 hit point and no healing surges. If he rested a day, he'd be good to go, but, there is no time. The Wesley player role plays the fact that he has 1 hit point and he dies if someone sneezes at him. But, at the proper moment, he stands up straight and bluffs Humperdink into surrendering. He then also jumps out the window and rides off into the sunset.

Done.

As far as "but, but, but, it will happen every fight" goes, well, that's ridiculous for several reasons. One, you have limited healing surges per day, so you simply cannot have it happen every fight. Two, you are not going to get that hurt in every fight that it would even need to come up. Three, the only way it would come up is if the DM and the player both decide to narrate the action in the most ridiculous way they could.

 

[Zustiur]

Then again, how many times are Buffyverse characters beaten up, kicked around, whatnot and then just press on afterwards. Every single one of your examples are plot related. If there was no plot reason for those injuries, they would never happen.

It's a TV show... it's all plot. If something happened without being part of the plot... wouldn't that be edited out?

As far as "but, but, but, it will happen every fight" goes, well, that's ridiculous for several reasons. One, you have limited healing surges per day, so you simply cannot have it happen every fight. Two, you are not going to get that hurt in every fight that it would even need to come up. Three, the only way it would come up is if the DM and the player both decide to narrate the action in the most ridiculous way they could.

Except that healing surges last for 3, 4, 5 or even more fights, and you generally rest for other reasons after that anyway. Ergo, every fight you have healing surges. And to your last point, the second wind/healing surge every fight issue has nothing to do with narration.

Many of your examples that you count on the healing surge side can be measured just fine without healing surges. But then, I'm a confessed 4E/healing surge hater.

The anime One Piece has some excellent examples of healing surges in action. Best example:

Luffy has gotten the high holy hell beat out of him by the villain. The villain has him at his mercy, and does a finishing blow so powerful it damages the wall 20 feet behind him. Then he just drops Luffy and walks away as Luffy teeters and almost falls over...then suddenly regains his footing, swears he will not be defeated, and launches an absolutely devastating counter-attack that finishes the fight in his favor.

Yup, that's a healing surge alright. The character received some form of healing, which came from no external source. That is, no magic, no potion, no rest and no medicine. He took damage that should have left him out of action, but the [game mechanics/anime healing genre] stepped in and broke reality to let him heal instantly.

I don't see how subdual damage can be discarded from this discussion either, given that almost all damage in action movies is from punching and the like, which would be subdual damage unless dealt by a martial artist (monk).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't see how subdual damage can be discarded from this discussion either, given that almost all damage in action movies is from punching and the like, which would be subdual damage unless dealt by a martial artist (monk).

To be fair, a lot of action movie protagonists have Improved Unarmed Strike.

(I just built a PC for an online game modeled on action movie depictions of Special Forces dudes, and he has Improved Unarmed Strike -- and Throat Punch, which is way cool! -- for pretty much only that reason.)

 

[roguerouge]

Sorry about that. Took a long time to post my reply and didn't see your points. At the time of my posting, I saw things at about 10-2. My bad. To be fair, I also didn't even SEE your stealth posted examples. Does it really count as spoilers to a show that's been cancelled for years?

Ah. Not a problem. And the reason for the spoiler tags? My girlfriend is on enworld and she's in season seven right now.

 

[D'karr]

Being heavily pursued by a superior force, John Rambo finds himself atop a very high clifftop. He can hear the baying of the dogs behind him, and knows that he can not hope to defeat so many opponents in an open fight. He would be easily captured or killed. He jumps off the clifftop aiming for some of the trees below. Using his athletics & acrobatics to land through the treetops, he hits hard against the branches as he plummets to the ground crashing unto it like a sack.

He is battered, bruised, and injured, and probably not in any condition to put up a fight. He seeks a sheltered area to rest. He takes out his trusty K-Bar, opens the hilt and pulls out some suture material and begins to sew through his skin to bind the open wounds on this arm. After that, he takes some water from a nearby stream, after this short rest he is ready to bring the fight to his enemy once again.